[pcper] AMD Mantle and NVIDIA 337.50 Scaling Demonstrated with Star Swarm on AM1 - Page 2 - Overclock.net

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post #11 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 05:51 AM
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im really tired of seeing star swarm...its simply become an optimization BS showcase....not something that can be used as a canvas to show real world performance or gains in anything.

Currently Playing: Deus Ex Mankind Divided, SOMA
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post #12 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

So a $150 graphics card using DX is faster than a $120 graphics card using Mantle when using a $1000 CPU.

The 750Ti is the faster card on average when there's no CPU bottleneck.
Quote:
The $120 card is faster than the $150 card when the $120 card is using Mantle on a low end CPU.

I'm glad you cleared this up. Hopefully AMD can continue to offer faster performance while costing 25% less. It just seems so much more likely to pair a $120 graphics card with a low end CPU than with a $1000 CPU.

It looks like a win in my book. 260x gets creamed when there is no CPU bottleneck (because it's a lower tier chip), yet it ends up competitive with a more expensive chip when you shift the bottleneck to CPU.

So, the smartest thing to do from this review is to spend less on CPU and more on an AMD GPU for Mantle.

For reference, the $120 Nvidia GPU is the plain old GTX 750, which is about 20% slower than GTX 750 Ti.

But I think the most humorous part of this is that GTX 750 Ti was beating 260x in Directx only with Kabini, but with the new Nvidia drivers and Mantle, the 750 Ti actually loses. So it went from winning to losing thanks to Mantle.

Also, as a side note, 260x improvement with Mantle: 27% GTX 750 Ti improvement with new drivers 21%.

And this would be all well and good if we had more than 2 mantle games. But we don't.

Which one would you rather have, improvements in all DX11 games, or a bit more improvement but that's limited to 2 games?

Fact of the matter is that Nvidia is coming quite close to mantle's improvements but they're doing it with DX11 so the list of games that support the improvements right now is probably 10x as large as mantle's is ever going to be.

So yeah, if we played Star Swarm for entertainment you might be right. But since I doubt anyone actually does that you need to look at the big picture if you're buying a GPU.
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Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

It does better in actual games when comparing non mantle. The recent pcper review shows that.
The cheap kabini platform does unexpectedly well.

And you're still better off buying FM2+ or H81 for gaming because those are better for the money.

Yes kabini can game, is it a good price/perf option though? No.

Yeah, but the GTX 750 Ti vs 260x comparison is invalid because they fall into different price segments. No one would be trying to decide between GTX 750 Ti and 260x.

The price difference between 260x and GTX 750 Ti is the same as the difference between GTX 750 Ti and R9 270. It would have been nice to see where that put GTX 750 Ti in the scope of things.

You've made a massive mistake, by the way.

Star Swarm is a game designed to work with Mantle. Meaning that it's designed to take advantage of the fact that you can do things like make a lot more draw calls. The Nvidia driver also only really works well for high draw call situations.

The Nvidia drivers will only make a 20% improvement when they are in draw call limited situations. Most games aren't limited by that. You're falsely trying to make it look like every single DirectX title has the same sort of engine design and limitations of Star Swarm engine to make Nvidia look better.

There are actual reviews comparing 337.50 driver to the old one in different situations. You can see it here: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/180088-nvidias-questionable-geforce-337-50-driver-or-why-you-shouldnt-trust-manufacturer-provided-numbers

Basically, the driver does not give a flat 20% increase in performance in all DirectX games like you are claiming. You are blatantly wrong and you are misleading people who are reading this forum.

The end result is that 337.50 driver offers no real improvements in DirectX games. It only works well in games where the engine is designed to take advantage of the improved performance of Mantle, and when it does, it doesn't work as well as Mantle.

So your claim that
Quote:
Which one would you rather have, improvements in all DX11 games, or a bit more improvement but that's limited to 2 games?
is blatantly wrong.

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but you're either completely misinformed or you're intentionally trying to mislead the forum.
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post #13 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 05:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t00sl0w View Post

im really tired of seeing star swarm...its simply become an optimization BS showcase....not something that can be used as a canvas to show real world performance or gains in anything.

Yeah, I basically agree. It's really only of interest to me because it was presented as an ideal demo for all the efficiency improvements in Mantle. Since it was built to make DirectX11 scream in pain, it's interesting to see how much difference a better driver can make. But I'm hardly going to care about Star Swarm bench numbers when I pick my next gpu.

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post #14 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:00 AM
 
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For the history, those massive CPU/central system alleviatios of load were present in OpenGL ARB since 2011. They were submitted by AMD. Here is the OpenGL main method involved and here is a video presentation of NVIDIA,AMD,Intel scientists discussing the merits.

http://developer.download.nvidia.com/opengl/specs/GL_AMD_multi_draw_indirect.txt

(especially after 27:45)

i.e. blame the lack of adoption of OpenGL. We are trashing HTML5 for Flash here.
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post #15 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

And you're still better off buying FM2+ or H81 for gaming because those are better for the money.

Yes kabini can game, is it a good price/perf option though? No.
How is it not?

Really how is it not...
It gives 70% of the perf of a 400 dollar i7 while on a cheaper platform. (based on gaming numbers from pcper)

While the 4 core kabini starts at 30 euro you can have case psu cpu and board for under a 100 dollar!
The performance/dollar is much higher than the i7 and also better than the 7850k.

A low end gaming pc with a ssd ram and a neat gpu for around 300 dollar. That is far less than even the i7 alone. Clearly it is one of the best price perf chips and if kept at 1.3GHz it will also be among the most efficient ones.
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post #16 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

snip

No one is suggesting that you will see the same changes in all software. I never specified that 337.50 and mantle would give the same increases in everything they support. I just said that NV's DX11 comes close to doing what mantle does for performance but it does it in all DX11 titles instead of 2 titles.

Also it's not just 337.50 that only shows real gains in draw call limited situations. The same also applies to mantle. The problem however is that with mantle we only have SS, thief and BF4 to test with. And what you're missing apparently is that (and not surprisingly) 337.50 will also show similar-ish gains in those titles as mantle.

Just like mantle, 337.50 shows bigger improvements in BF4 multi and very little improvements in GPU bound SP situations. Just like mantle, 337.50 shows small-ish improvements in thief when using high end systems, and just like mantle 337.50 shows huge gains in Star Swarm.

Now the problem with 337.50 reviews comes from the fact that there are a ton of games that don't suffer from these draw call limited situations and there you will not see a benefit. And again, the same would apply to mantle. Mantle isn't going to show improvements in something like the canned tomb raider bench which is basically a demo for TressFX.

Mantle and 337.50 give improvements in similar situations, 337.50 isn't quite as efficient but it has much more supported games.


And as for the price debate, R7 260Xs retail for $130 if they're 2GB versions. And as far as I'm aware no one here has claimed that the 750Ti is a price/performance king, it's not even what this article is about.
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How is it not?

Really how is it not...
It gives 70% of the perf of a 400 dollar i7 while on a cheaper platform. (based on gaming numbers from pcper)

While the 4 core kabini starts at 30 euro you can have case psu cpu and board for under a 100 dollar!
The performance/dollar is much higher than the i7 and also better than the 7850k.

A low end gaming pc with a ssd ram and a neat gpu for around 300 dollar. That is far less than even the i7 alone. Clearly it is one of the best price perf chips and if kept at 1.3GHz it will also be among the most efficient ones.

FM2+ and H81 systems will get much closer to that $1000 i7 when using $150 GPUs for very little more money compared to the kabini systems. Also they have much higher single core performance for those RTS, MMO etc. games that people will want to play on lower end gaming systems.

Besides 7850K is terrible value, it's the richland quads and haswell pentiums/celerons that will kill kabini as far as gaming price/perf goes.

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post #17 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post


i.e. blame the lack of adoption of OpenGL. We are trashing HTML5 for Flash here.

Blame game developers, nobody else... smile.gif

To Alatar:
When Mantle was announced mr. John Carmack came with speech like "oh look we can do it in OpenGL too". Well ... wht... why you didnt do it previously? biggrin.gif

From my point of view new Nvidia driver is something similar when we are talking about free performance gain, BUT its not new, free (soon to be) open standard.

I dont believe that new Nvidia driver will fix crappy CPU threading in Skyrim. Mantle is giving to game developers new tool for new hardware. Thats the important point. Even now we still can only guess how widely it will be adopted.

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post #18 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:18 AM
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A useless benchmark without average batches. Also its follow scenario=not the same route. Conclusion an article using the stupid war between amd users and nvidia users to gain more clicks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ
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No I said if Vega is clocked @ 1600MHz out of the box, I will eat my shoe on Twitch.tv.

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Not in games, which is what 99.9999 percent of us care about

And unless you own a business, you get paid for your time. So your compute power just makes more work for you not less

Ryzen is a joke to the vast majority of the market who would consider buying their product.
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post #19 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

snip

No one is suggesting that you will see the same changes in all software. I never specified that 337.50 and mantle would give the same increases in everything they support. I just said that NV's DX11 comes close to doing what mantle does for performance but it does it in all DX11 titles instead of 2 titles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar 
Which one would you rather have, improvements in all DX11 games, or a bit more improvement but that's limited to 2 games?





I don't know why you are so compelled to defend these drivers in the face of so much conflicting evidence.

And as for the prices, I took the lowest prices I could find on Newegg. I always do that when comparing prices because it's only fair to compare prices between the same retailer. It's too easy to fudge numbers to push an agenda when you start grabbing tons of different stores.
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post #20 of 48 Old 04-22-2014, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

FM2+ and H81 systems will get much closer to that $1000 i7 when using $150 GPUs for very little more money compared to the kabini systems. Also they have much higher single core performance for those RTS, MMO etc. games that people will want to play on lower end gaming systems.

Besides 7850K is terrible value, it's the richland quads and haswell pentiums/celerons that will kill kabini as far as gaming price/perf goes.
The kabini is 30 euro the competition bein it richland or pentium/celerons are higher and need a more expensive platform. Just look at the pcper review it is a good enough gaming processor if it can put down good numbers even with a 750Ti.
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