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post #24781 of 25319 Old 11-01-2015, 11:40 PM
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I'll go a step further and say Korean players are probably not smart enough to be valuable game designers. I mean - their ability consists mostly of learning several dozens of strategies by heart, and then use their superbly trained reflexes to switch between them on the go. It's mostly memory + reflexes. There's very little creativity involved, only a few players can actually improvise.
That doesn't exactly translate into coming up with good new units and features to enrich the game.

Yeah not true at all IMO.

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post #24782 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 12:08 PM
 
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Well now that beta is over...

LotV is gonna be a mess @ launch. Mule buff is leading to parade push bio, which is near impossible to hold for it's timing (4-5 mins), lurkers are absurd. They're so good you could name lotv to lotlurker because once there's a critical mass of them you will never go ground again...and the hydras shut down the air counterplay since lurkers morph from them.

Liberators are still a bit of a problem, mostly because they come out too early, creating another gimmicky harass option for terran. They also one shot larva.

Photon Overcharge simply costs too little energy, making attacking a protoss almost impossible in the mid game if they have troops.

Terran late game is still horrible and instead of being fixed they gave terrans more gimmicky harass options.

There's some glaring issues that still need to be resolved. But once theyre resolved the game will be fantastic.

Mule should be buffed and limited to 1 per Orbital. That is something that can be balanced and compensates Terran for the lost mining time. Mass mules is just problematic and very hard to balance as they exponentially increase terran's ability to swarm which in turn makes units that are otherwise fine, a little problematic. It also gives a clear harass option to hurt terran, mules make terran far too resiliant in their current form.

Liberators would probably be fairly balanced if there was some sort of artificial time limit on their "siege mode". I'd like to see them have energy and their AtG cost energy per second while sieged up. So the'd be like a stationary Oracle instead of a silly YOU SHALL NOT PASS unit.

Photon Overcharge needs to cost 50 energy or work off of a banked charge system to prevent spammability. It's crazy that you can't dance around a protoss base, taking advantage of bad building placement because Protoss has a few stalkers+a few cannons and then PO's during a crutial mid game push to nip the protoss in the bud before they spiral out of control.

Lurkers just need to be toned down. I'd start with a significantly lower burrow time and a slower projectile speed so there's micro-intensive counter play.
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post #24783 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

LotV is gonna be a mess @ launch. Mule buff is leading to parade push bio, which is near impossible to hold for it's timing, lurkers are absurd. They're so good you could name lotv to lotlurker because once there's a critical mass of them you will never go ground again...and the hydras shut down the air counterplay since lurkers morph from them.

Liberators are still a bit of a problem, mostly because they come out too early, creating another gimmicky harass option for terran. They also one shot larva.

Photon Overcharge simply costs too little energy, making attacking a protoss almost impossible in the mid game if they have troops.

Terran late game is still horrible and instead of being fixed they gave terrans more gimmicky harass options.

There's some glaring issues that still need to be resolved. But once theyre resolved the game will be fantastic.

I would hesitate to say that the game is fundamentally imbalanced, because the metagame is still very immature. It takes time to uncover the problems.

I think in TvP the strength of bio pushes is largely mitgated by early game adepts. I think a protoss that isn't abusing adepts right now probably isn't playing up to the capabilities of their race.

Lurkers are a very strong and relatively cheap siege solution, but with disruptors and liberators I think the tools are there for each race to deal with them. Time will tell how the balance falls out.

Photon overcharge, IMO, is in a decent place, other than the obvious problems with a 1 click defense mechanic. Targeting down the pylons is a good options if you have overwhelming forces, and the range is pretty limited.

Terran late game seems particularly weak in TvZ. Mass ghosts might be viable, but it is hard to imagine how a terran is able to get there.

I would add to your list of potential issues the nydus worm. There are very select few terran builds that can survive a roach nydus all ins, most of them revolve around fast liberators.

I think for the zerg defending liberators is really map dependent. If the liberator can be reached by queens, having four or five queens seems to be a good defense do to the immobility and the limited range of liberators in siege mode. On maps with a lot of open air space it can be a problem because zerg has few anti air options before lair tech.
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post #24784 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

I would hesitate to say that the game is fundamentally imbalanced, because the metagame is still very immature. It takes time to uncover the problems.

While I agree, blizzard has shown that they're not really good at this approach. Wait and see has left things like turtle mech and WoL's archon toilet/BL Infestor in the game. They need to be more proactive and start dictating the game states a little more.
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I think in TvP the strength of bio pushes is largely mitgated by early game adepts. I think a protoss that isn't abusing adepts right now probably isn't playing up to the capabilities of their race.

The issue is solely the sheer number of bio units du to the mule being a poorly designed compensation for terran losing mining time - and a way to mitigate harass damage.
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Lurkers are a very strong and relatively cheap siege solution, but with disruptors and liberators I think the tools are there for each race to deal with them. Time will tell how the balance falls out.

Disruptors don't deal with Lurkers very well because lurkers, if used by a competent player aren't clumped. They do work but only if there's no troops supporting the Lurkers which is rare.
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Photon overcharge, IMO, is in a decent place, other than the obvious problems with a 1 click defense mechanic. Targeting down the pylons is a good options if you have overwhelming forces, and the range is pretty limited.

That's great for the early stages but when there's troops+PO it starts to get a little silly because any attempt to focus down pylons results in the army killing you - and due to the snowball effect you cannot let protoss hide behind PO or they'll deathball while PO protects them against a counter attack.
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Terran late game seems particularly weak in TvZ. Mass ghosts might be viable, but it is hard to imagine how a terran is able to get there.

Exact opposite applies for the other 2 races. Terran early game right now due to overly swarmy bio is particularily strong, getting to the late game is problematic. Asymetrical design is wonderful and makes the game interesting but these are two extremes that need to find common ground. There shouldn't be a timer saying "I must win within X minutes or I lose" or "I must push back overwhelming odds for X minutes to have a chance". The issue is the asymetrical design is ttaken to such extremes it creates issues.
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I would add to your list of potential issues the nydus worm. There are very select few terran builds that can survive a roach nydus all ins, most of them revolve around fast liberators.

I forgot about that, Nydus being healable by queens is a bit silly.
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post #24785 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 01:36 PM
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While I agree, blizzard has shown that they're not really good at this approach. Wait and see has left things like turtle mech and WoL's archon toilet/BL Infestor in the game. They need to be more proactive and start dictating the game states a little more.

Both those problems occurred at the end of WOL and HOTS respectively, so their in attention was do to an unwillingness to patch the game while developing a new expansion. I can understand the sentiment though. I do not at all understand 8 armor ultras, but blizzard has a vision for this game that is just different from everybody else. Sigh.
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The issue is solely the sheer number of bio units du to the mule being a poorly designed compensation for terran losing mining time - and a way to mitigate harass damage.

The mule gets a lot of hate, but if you compare the resource mining rate for all three races they are virtually identical at most every stage of the game. The mule gives terran significant advantages in super late game situations in terms of mining rate, but do to the general immobility of late game terran compositions, I don't see it as a serious problem.
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Disruptors don't deal with Lurkers very well because lurkers, if used by a competent player aren't clumped. They do work but only if there's no troops supporting the Lurkers which is rare.

Probably the best counter is to exploit their immobility. I don't know whether or not they are balanced or not, but I am pretty sure the design of the lurker works just fine in sc2.
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That's great for the early stages but when there's troops+PO it starts to get a little silly because any attempt to focus down pylons results in the army killing you - and due to the snowball effect you cannot let protoss hide behind PO or they'll deathball while PO protects them against a counter attack.

The nexus cannon was a lot stronger in HOTS, and protoss late game a lot scarier. The double and triple photon overcharge can get very silly, and personally I don't think protoss should have ever had an easy defend button. I don't think it will break the design of protoss.
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Exact opposite applies for the other 2 races. Terran early game right now due to overly swarmy bio is particularily weak, getting to the late game is problematic. Asymetrical design is wonderful and makes the game interesting but these are two extremes that need to find common ground. There shouldn't be a timer saying "I must win within X minutes or I lose" or "I must push back overwhelming odds for X minutes to have a chance". The issue is the asymetrical design is ttaken to such extremes it creates issues.

That is more or less always been terran's lot. I find it very frustrating, but for a variety of reasons, it had to exist in previous expansions and I expect it probably will persist in LOTV.
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post #24786 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Both those problems occurred at the end of WOL and HOTS respectively, so their in attention was do to an unwillingness to patch the game while developing a new expansion. I can understand the sentiment though. I do not at all understand 8 armor ultras, but blizzard has a vision for this game that is just different from everybody else. Sigh.

I think the 8 armor ultras is a good thing, bio should not be viable vs super late game unit compositions as it's a early-mid game unit compoisiton. Terran need to be forced into using more units than just bio because bio is just too good and mobile. Why invest in expensive mech when you can just drop, split, stutterstep and press t? If you lose the bio, no problem. Very easily replaced. Ultras force terrans to not bio.
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The mule gets a lot of hate, but if you compare the resource mining rate for all three races they are virtually identical at most every stage of the game. The mule gives terran significant advantages in super late game situations in terms of mining rate, but do to the general immobility of late game terran compositions, I don't see it as a serious problem.

The issue isn't that mules compensate too much but rather the relationship that marines and the mule share. Either in a bubble are not a problem but when combined they create issues. It's one of the reasons in LotV 4 minute bio+combat shield parade pushes is a problem in every leauge. Marines are simply too spammable when the mule is in play.
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Probably the best counter is to exploit their immobility. I don't know whether or not they are balanced or not, but I am pretty sure the design of the lurker works just fine in sc2.

The design of lurkers is fine, it's just number tweaks that need to happen. Lurkers burrow so fast you can't focus fire them which is a huge problem. If you catch a positional unit out of position, you should be rewarded and your opponent should be punished. This concept has been a constant throughout sc2 with the exception of the lurker due to the fast burrow speed. The slower projectile speed is just to add counter play in PvZ which is where lurkers are by far the most problematic during their timing window.
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The nexus cannon was a lot stronger in HOTS, and protoss late game a lot scarier. The double and triple photon overcharge can get very silly, and personally I don't think protoss should have ever had an easy defend button. I don't think it will break the design of protoss.

Late game protoss is extremely scary now, mass gateway play with some stargate support or robo support is devastatingly good if you attack multiple locations. Depending if detect is even needed you might not need anything but the gateways if you keep up on your upgrades.
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That is more or less always been terran's lot. I find it very frustrating, but for a variety of reasons, it had to exist in previous expansions and I expect it probably will persist in LOTV.

Which is why I really do think terran ruin sc2. Zerg and Protoss have a nice dynamic where they can both excel reasonably well in all stages of the game. Terran rely on gimmicky harass of various types, denying scouting so you don't know what kind of harass is coming an d finishing you off with swarmy unit compositions that require vastly different counters than what you were forced to get in order to beat the harass back.

The issue in a nutshell, bar terran lategame being bad is terran's design is too robust. They have too many viable options in LotV which all require different reactions. And that alone still isn't a huge issue until you combine the extreme difficulty of gathering intel from scouting terran as a 1 rax fe wth 1 gas is pretty standard and bar a wall scout you can't tell what type of harass is coming until it's too late to prepare.

It creates coin flip game states. It's multiple small issues that alone are not problematic that combine to create a early-mid game nightmare that has stagnated terran for 5 years.
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post #24787 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

I think the 8 armor ultras is a good thing, bio should not be viable vs super late game unit compositions as it's a early-mid game unit compoisiton. Terran need to be forced into using more units than just bio because bio is just too good and mobile. Why invest in expensive mech when you can just drop, split, stutterstep and press t? If you lose the bio, no problem. Very easily replaced. Ultras force terrans to not bio.
The issue isn't that mules compensate too much but rather the relationship that marines and the mule share. Either in a bubble are not a problem but when combined they create issues. It's one of the reasons in LotV 4 minute bio+combat shield parade pushes is a problem in every leauge. Marines are simply too spammable when the mule is in play.
The design of lurkers is fine, it's just number tweaks that need to happen. Lurkers burrow so fast you can't focus fire them which is a huge problem. If you catch a positional unit out of position, you should be rewarded and your opponent should be punished. This concept has been a constant throughout sc2 with the exception of the lurker due to the fast burrow speed. The slower projectile speed is just to add counter play in PvZ which is where lurkers are by far the most problematic during their timing window.
Late game protoss is extremely scary now, mass gateway play with some stargate support or robo support is devastatingly good if you attack multiple locations. Depending if detect is even needed you might not need anything but the gateways if you keep up on your upgrades.
Which is why I really do think terran ruin sc2. Zerg and Protoss have a nice dynamic where they can both excel reasonably well in all stages of the game. Terran rely on gimmicky harass of various types, denying scouting so you don't know what kind of harass is coming an d finishing you off with swarmy unit compositions that require vastly different counters than what you were forced to get in order to beat the harass back.

The issue in a nutshell, bar terran lategame being bad is terran's design is too robust. They have too many viable options in LotV which all require different reactions. And that alone still isn't a huge issue until you combine the extreme difficulty of gathering intel from scouting terran as a 1 rax fe wth 1 gas is pretty standard and bar a wall scout you can't tell what type of harass is coming until it's too late to prepare.

It creates coin flip game states. It's multiple small issues that alone are not problematic that combine to create a early-mid game nightmare that has stagnated terran for 5 years.

Your criticism of Terran bio speak more to your personal bias than the state of the game. One and two base bio timings are far from unbeatable or even problematic. There is no special synergy between mules and marines anymore than there are drones and zerglings.

Terran gimmicky strats are very technical and very tactical. Terran strategies have always revolved around the dynamics of the other races, and for that reason terran has always been mid game focused. The challenge with balancing terran is that terran needs to be aggressive in the mid game in order to end up even or ahead in the late game. Bio is not the problem in sc2, the problem is that you need to give the other two races good answers to bio, and also allow terran to transition to more expensive and advanced composition. In LOTV there are plenty of good answers to bio but not very many good transitions out of bio for terran.

I strongly disagree with 8 armor ultras being a good thing for sc2. In HOTS zergs already had the advantage in late game against bio, the problem was that the investment in hive, ultra cavern, 3-3 and plating was so large zerg could only afford to do it if they got significantly ahead. The matchup revolved around terran killing zerg before hive tech and/or infinite money and drones. Zerg needed to take a decisive advantage in the mid game or find a way to get to four and five bases and spam infinity ling bane muta. TvZ, throughout the life of Sc2, has always been considered the most balanced matchup, and this is primarily do to the cost efficiency parody between bio + medivacs and splash damage (mines in HOTS, tanks in WOL) and ling bane muta. 8 armor ultralisk destroys that balance. One fully upgrades ultra can killing effectively infinite marines (600 or so actually, try it in a unit testor). With marauders having two attacks now they do effectively zero and the thors and mines were always a soft counter. From a game design standpoint, the buff to ultralisks makes zero sense - blizzards only aim could have been to make bio completely obsolete once zerg gets hive tech.

Terran still has all the mid game tools they used to plus the liberators and cyclones, so the matchup will balance out. It is only going to force terrans to be even more mid game focused though, because bio is very nearly worthless late game.
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post #24788 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 04:57 PM
 
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post #24789 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 06:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Your criticism of Terran bio speak more to your personal bias than the state of the game. One and two base bio timings are far from unbeatable or even problematic. There is no special synergy between mules and marines anymore than there are drones and zerglings.

Not even remotely close to true. I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Mules feed the rax which spam the marines. It's why code s players are losing to 2 base combat shield pushes at 4 minutes.

Can you blame me for being biased? Terran for 5 years have pulled the same bio crap. No variation, just spam mmm+a mech unit of their choice until they figured out that they can create impregnable fortresses and sit on 3 bases until they win via attrittion - mostly due to bases containing waaaaaay too many resources.
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Terran gimmicky strats are very technical and very tactical. Terran strategies have always revolved around the dynamics of the other races, and for that reason terran has always been mid game focused. The challenge with balancing terran is that terran needs to be aggressive in the mid game in order to end up even or ahead in the late game. Bio is not the problem in sc2, the problem is that you need to give the other two races good answers to bio, and also allow terran to transition to more expensive and advanced composition. In LOTV there are plenty of good answers to bio but not very many good transitions out of bio for terran.

That's a huge chunk of it, yes but the other part is that terran are built around denying scouting so their gimmicks go through sucessful. By time you get a good scout terran have their very powerful gimmick in play - and those gimmicks require vastly different counters to combat.
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I strongly disagree with 8 armor ultras being a good thing for sc2. In HOTS zergs already had the advantage in late game against bio, the problem was that the investment in hive, ultra cavern, 3-3 and plating was so large zerg could only afford to do it if they got significantly ahead.

That tells me you're not using spell damage to deal with ultras. Micro'd mines do wonders vs Ultras, same with Ghosts - to a point, then there's just too many ultras to snipe.
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The matchup revolved around terran killing zerg before hive tech and/or infinite money and drones. Zerg needed to take a decisive advantage in the mid game or find a way to get to four and five bases and spam infinity ling bane muta. TvZ, throughout the life of Sc2, has always been considered the most balanced matchup, and this is primarily do to the cost efficiency parody between bio + medivacs and splash damage (mines in HOTS, tanks in WOL) and ling bane muta.

I don't know how you form that opinion when Swarm Hosts wrecked Terran to the point of bio or die trying and once they were nerfed Terran started turtling so hard that zerg have to not just outplay the opponent but massively outplay them. TvZ has never been a healthy match up, it's showcased a lot of issues with terran's design being too complete and synergetic which forces hard counters to deal with. Even in WoL you had BL Infestor which messed up the MU.
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8 armor ultralisk destroys that balance. One fully upgrades ultra can killing effectively infinite marines (600 or so actually, try it in a unit testor). With marauders having two attacks now they do effectively zero and the thors and mines were always a soft counter. From a game design standpoint, the buff to ultralisks makes zero sense - blizzards only aim could have been to make bio completely obsolete once zerg gets hive tech.

It makes perfect sense, terran kept going bio bio bio every game. It's been 5 years and it's still bio bio bio. Why? Because bio is incredibly powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't matter that it relies mainly on using the entry level terran units because they're so cheap they can simply be thrown away and massed all over again. Case and point: bio absolutely requires splash damage to deal with, ther is no other counter once they hit critical mass. Ultras force terran players to do something other than bio bio bio. Namely use spell damage to circumvent ultra's armor. Liberators, mines and ghosts all do this. I'd say ravens too but who makes ravens now days?
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Terran still has all the mid game tools they used to plus the liberators and cyclones, so the matchup will balance out. It is only going to force terrans to be even more mid game focused though, because bio is very nearly worthless late game.

That in itself is the design issue with terran. Bio is so strong that terran cannot have a strong late game. This is because bio can be massed so fast and easily+counters everything but splash damage once critical mass is achieved+stim. In order for terran to have a stronger late game which I support adjustments to bio need to be made so they can't just spam bio then transition into another composition when bio is faced with enough splash damage to pray on it's ony major weakness.

Now let me ask you this, why is bio so strong? What makes a whole bunch of normally bad units really, really powerful?

The resources that fuel them, without their swarmy numbers bio becomes significantly weaker, especially since it can't just be thrown away due to production capabilities being fueled by those resources being collected at a very, very fast rate.

From a design standpoint the mule is the cause of this. Without a crazy influx of minerals bio cannot be sustained. That's not saying the mule needs to be removed, that's saying tha there's a relationship between mineral dumps and the means to aquire enough minerals to consistently and constantly use said minerals in an effective manner.
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post #24790 of 25319 Old 11-02-2015, 08:17 PM
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Not even remotely close to true. I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Mules feed the rax which spam the marines. It's why code s players are losing to 2 base combat shield pushes at 4 minutes.

But they aren't... At least not with any regularity. I watched very nearly every code S game for five years, one base marine pushes with combat shields isn't a thing and it never has been. It might be in LOTV, but there hasn't been an LOTV code S, and based on my experience playing LOTV I find it unlikely to be an effective strategy.

You might be referring to some two base 5 rax pressure builds in TvP, which has largely been out of style for years but was popular for a time. The build you described doesn't exist. Feel free to link some games.
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Can you blame me for being biased? Terran for 5 years have pulled the same bio crap. No variation, just spam mmm+a mech unit of their choice until they figured out that they can create impregnable fortresses and sit on 3 bases until they win via attrittion - mostly due to bases containing waaaaaay too many resources.

That is a gross oversimplification. Just because the composition hasn't changed doesn't mean the strategies have also not changed. There is a huge difference between bio mine builds into three base bio, and three racks openers into three base bio, even if they arrive at more or less the same place.

As for the complaints about no variation... yeah, terrans are upset about that too. If there was any other viable composition you would see it. Blame blizzard on that one.
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That's a huge chunk of it, yes but the other part is that terran are built around denying scouting so their gimmicks go through sucessful. By time you get a good scout terran have their very powerful gimmick in play - and those gimmicks require vastly different counters to combat.

It isn't a gimmick strategy. Zerg and Protoss can play a timing and harass oriented style too. Life and Parting do it all the time.

Not to over generalize, but terran builds often don't revolve around denying scouting (although some certainly do). A three base bio mine push in tvz hits at the same time almost every game, and zergs know it is coming. The challenge for zerg is to crush that initial force. The challenge for terran is to force zerg out of position or into a bad fight and take momentum. Neither one is surprised with both make tons of units around 11 minutes and meet each other in the middle of the map. Source; virtually ever TvZ Innovation, Dream, or Maru played in 2014.
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That tells me you're not using spell damage to deal with ultras. Micro'd mines do wonders vs Ultras, same with Ghosts - to a point, then there's just too many ultras to snipe.

The point that I was trying to make is that ultras a brutal hard counter to everything that comes out of the barracks, not that ultras are unkillable or unbeatable.
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I don't know how you form that opinion when Swarm Hosts wrecked Terran to the point of bio or die trying and once they were nerfed Terran started turtling so hard that zerg have to not just outplay the opponent but massively outplay them. TvZ has never been a healthy match up, it's showcased a lot of issues with terran's design being too complete and synergetic which forces hard counters to deal with. Even in WoL you had BL Infestor which messed up the MU.

There is like five different ideas there. The old swarm host was a problem in TvZ when terran chose to mech, because swarm host was the only good answer to terran turtle mech. Some players, notably snute also used swarm host against bio but it was not common place. The nerf to swarm host was motivated by the units place in ZvP, although it was a problem in TvZ vs mech as well.

When the swarm host was nerfed, terran mech become very powerful. On some maps there just isn't a lot zerg can do. Blizzard chose not to address this balance issue late in HOTS, presumably because they were more focused on LOTV.

Broodlord infestor on WOL was similar in that way; the imbalance of the composition showed up very late in WOL and blizzard was afriad to address it without knowing how the changes would effect the new expansions. I
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Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Not even remotely close to true. I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Mules feed the rax which spam the marines. It's why code s players are losing to 2 base combat shield pushes at 4 minutes.

Can you blame me for being biased? Terran for 5 years have pulled the same bio crap. No variation, just spam mmm+a mech unit of their choice until they figured out that they can create impregnable fortresses and sit on 3 bases until they win via attrittion - mostly due to bases containing waaaaaay too many resources.
That's a huge chunk of it, yes but the other part is that terran are built around denying scouting so their gimmicks go through sucessful. By time you get a good scout terran have their very powerful gimmick in play - and those gimmicks require vastly different counters to combat.
That tells me you're not using spell damage to deal with ultras. Micro'd mines do wonders vs Ultras, same with Ghosts - to a point, then there's just too many ultras to snipe.
I don't know how you form that opinion when Swarm Hosts wrecked Terran to the point of bio or die trying and once they were nerfed Terran started turtling so hard that zerg have to not just outplay the opponent but massively outplay them. TvZ has never been a healthy match up, it's showcased a lot of issues with terran's design being too complete and synergetic which forces hard counters to deal with. Even in WoL you had BL Infestor which messed up the MU.
It makes perfect sense, terran kept going bio bio bio every game. It's been 5 years and it's still bio bio bio. Why? Because bio is incredibly powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't matter that it relies mainly on using the entry level terran units because they're so cheap they can simply be thrown away and massed all over again. Case and point: bio absolutely requires splash damage to deal with, ther is no other counter once they hit critical mass. Ultras force terran players to do something other than bio bio bio. Namely use spell damage to circumvent ultra's armor. Liberators, mines and ghosts all do this. I'd say ravens too but who makes ravens now days?
That in itself is the design issue with terran. Bio is so strong that terran cannot have a strong late game. This is because bio can be massed so fast and easily+counters everything but splash damage once critical mass is achieved+stim. In order for terran to have a stronger late game which I support adjustments to bio need to be made so they can't just spam bio then transition into another composition when bio is faced with enough splash damage to pray on it's ony major weakness.

Now let me ask you this, why is bio so strong? What makes a whole bunch of normally bad units really, really powerful?

The resources that fuel them, without their swarmy numbers bio becomes significantly weaker, especially since it can't just be thrown away due to production capabilities being fueled by those resources being collected at a very, very fast rate.

From a design standpoint the mule is the cause of this. Without a crazy influx of minerals bio cannot be sustained. That's not saying the mule needs to be removed, that's saying tha there's a relationship between mineral dumps and the means to aquire enough minerals to consistently and constantly use said minerals in an effective manner.
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It makes perfect sense, terran kept going bio bio bio every game. It's been 5 years and it's still bio bio bio. Why? Because bio is incredibly powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't matter that it relies mainly on using the entry level terran units because they're so cheap they can simply be thrown away and massed all over again. Case and point: bio absolutely requires splash damage to deal with, ther is no other counter once they hit critical mass. Ultras force terran players to do something other than bio bio bio. Namely use spell damage to circumvent ultra's armor. Liberators, mines and ghosts all do this. I'd say ravens too but who makes ravens now days?

You have to put things in proper context. Just because terran builds the same units doesn't make it the same strategy. I would also point out, again, that terran has been largely forced into that composition. Blame blizzard.
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That in itself is the design issue with terran. Bio is so strong that terran cannot have a strong late game. This is because bio can be massed so fast and easily+counters everything but splash damage once critical mass is achieved+stim. In order for terran to have a stronger late game which I support adjustments to bio need to be made so they can't just spam bio then transition into another composition when bio is faced with enough splash damage to pray on it's ony major weakness.

I can get behind that. You can't give terran a really good midgame and a really good late game. They aren't protoss tongue.gif.
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Now let me ask you this, why is bio so strong? What makes a whole bunch of normally bad units really, really powerful?

The resources that fuel them, without their swarmy numbers bio becomes significantly weaker, especially since it can't just be thrown away due to production capabilities being fueled by those resources being collected at a very, very fast rate.

From a design standpoint the mule is the cause of this. Without a crazy influx of minerals bio cannot be sustained. That's not saying the mule needs to be removed, that's saying tha there's a relationship between mineral dumps and the means to aquire enough minerals to consistently and constantly use said minerals in an effective manner.

Bio is strong because of mobility and because of their cost effectiveness in the mid game. The math doesn't support your claim that terrans get more resources because of mules. Protoss has chrono boost and zerg has the hatchery mechanics. If you watch pro level games and monitor the income tag, you will notice that macro terran builds, protoss build, and zerg builds have virtually identical incomes going into the late game. Download a couple dozen replays from pro games and take a look.
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