KOOLANCE PROBLEMS - Page 12 - Overclock.net

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post #111 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

On the base of the block were there is copper showing in the small micro channels
Don't corrosion!!!!

Later post a MACRO PIC to confirm


First they said they were ALGAE
Now they say that is CORROSION

And frankly are not any of those things!

Failure pump manufacturing defect

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post #112 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 08:28 PM
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Yes the block has some corrosion and usually the first place to see it in CPU blocks because it is where water flow is lowest. I'm not saying that's what caused the pump to leak, but some people have worried about nickel flaking issues causing metal flakes to damage the pump/bearing. I haven't really seen much on that, but regardless, the water alone (without blocker) does appear to have started some corrosion in the CPU block.

In GPU blocks it usually starts where acrylic sits on top of channels for this same reason.

While nickel does look nice and prevents fingerprints from oxidizing copper, it is prone to corrosion when you don't use a corrosion blocker.

Here you can see the corrosion potential. Small but there between copper and nickel.
corrosionplating.png

Plating is very thin and in direct metal to metal contact with copper. it only takes a microscopic pinhole for water to begin reacting. Then it works it's way under the plating because the water becomes very conductive "electrolite" between the two and the copper is what corrodes due to it's higher index. It eats under the nickel then you have flakes of nickel coming off in bigger pieces. This is why Zinc is considered a sacrificial anode..very high index.

In the end, all metals will corrode. How soon it becomes visible depends on direct metal to metal contact, how much galvanic potial there is, how thick the materials/plating are, and how conductive the fluid is.

A corrosion blocker just slows that process way down. Anyhow, not saying that's what caused the leak to start, but the little bit of corrosion does support why they recommend using their coolant which includes not only a biocide, but also a corrosion blocker. When you mix your own water with biocide, you omit the corrosion blocker.

I think the issue is more that the pump top wasn't tightened correctly or worked loose, or the o-ring hardened/shrunk some how. We just don't see this sort of leak issue very often. The pumps are typically pressure tested at higher than normal operating pressure, so any leak that is present at the factory would fail the QC pressure test.

I'm not sure what it is, just wanted to emphasize that water alone isn't perfectly safe as many like to convey, particularly with plated products..there is risk in running your own brew without a blocker.

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post #113 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 08:30 PM
 
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Only thing I know is;
When I go to a water cooling manufacturers site and their warranty policy informs me that I have to use all their products(even if inferior to competitor) to be covered by warranty, I simply won't buy it.
Hard to expect much from them, even if it is there fault they already let you know off the bat they won't be taking responsibility for it.

This is what their policy translates in my head as
Koolance: "Did you use our product A, B, and C?"
User: "No I used A and B"
Koolance: "Sorry we can't help you, goodbye"
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post #114 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eze2kiel View Post

Don't corrosion!!!!

Later post a MACRO PIC to confirm


First they said they were ALGAE
Now they say that is CORROSION

And frankly are not any of those things!

Failure pump manufacturing defect
You come posting here and show us pictures to get our opinion on your issue and we give you our input then tell us we are wrong. Especially Martin, one of the most knowledgable watercooler around, if not the most knowledgeable. Frankly, I'm done trying to help you. I'm obviously just wasting my time at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by INCREDIBLEHULK View Post

Only thing I know is;
When I go to a water cooling manufacturers site and their warranty policy informs me that I have to use all their products(even if inferior to competitor) to be covered by warranty, I simply won't buy it.
Hard to expect much from them, even if it is there fault they already let you know off the bat they won't be taking responsibility for it.

This is what their policy translates in my head as
Koolance: "Did you use our product A, B, and C?"
User: "No I used A and B"
Koolance: "Sorry we can't help you, goodbye"
Exactly. And that's such a shame because I really like koolance's products. The only Koolance product I've used is there new QDCs and think they are a great product. I think most of there GPU blocks look amazing and had it not been for their ridiculous warranty policy I would consider getting one for future upgrades.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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post #115 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 08:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

You come posting here and show us pictures to get our opinion on your issue and we give you our input then tell us we are wrong. Especially Martin, one of the most knowledgable watercooler around, if not the most knowledgeable. Frankly, I'm done trying to help you. I'm obviously just wasting my time at this point

Some people take longer than others to understand or comprehend. Some just never do.

Let Eze2kiel run his loop for another year or two and come back to update us with some new pictures biggrin.gif

Eze2kiel - bottom line, what you have is not normal, check martins website and put a little weight to the multiple people giving you these "opinions" they might be a lot more than what you think is their "opinion"

morencyam is right, Martin has been around the block, tongue.gif http://martinsliquidlab.org/ he doesn't read blogs and repeat opinions/rumors, he'll test things with the tools before he ever speaks on it
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post #116 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 09:01 PM
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Did a quick search, same corrosion issues here that look very similar where the nickel layer has been removed from the fins where the plate covers:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1159288/koolance-370-corrosion

http://www.overclock.net/t/1297422/koolance-cpu-370-and-bitspower-corrosion-solution

And a GPU example of more advance corrosion.

http://www.overclock.net/g/i/798098/a/729359/dsc-6950-jpg/

Search nickel plus corrosion, you will have months of reading material. Plenty of examples to go around from all sorts of manufacturers. There may be some differences in plating quality and thickness, but issues continue to show up given all the right conditions (usually means someone using just water + biocide).

I lost a hwlabs SR1 radiator to galvanic corrosion when I let water sit in one for a couple of months. And this was corrosion through the entire solder joint, deep! Much deeper than thin nickel plating.

corrosion5.jpg

RIP SR1, "water" is not as innocent as we all like to think..smile.gif We like to call copper/brass/nickel/tin the same metals (It certainly is more safe than aluminum/copper loops), but copper/brass/nickel/tin/stainless are NOT the same and very much mixed metals on a slower corrosion timescale. Give it some direct metal to metal contact, avoid the corrosion blocking coolants, and emphasize some slow moving fluid areas and you've got the right setup for chemistry.smile.gif

Some like to call it a quality problem, I call it a user selected (or misinformed) science experiment!..biggrin.gif

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post #117 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

Did a quick search, same corrosion issues here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1159288/koolance-370-corrosion

http://www.overclock.net/t/1297422/koolance-cpu-370-and-bitspower-corrosion-solution

http://www.overclock.net/g/i/798098/a/729359/dsc-6950-jpg/

Search nickel plus corrosion, you will have months of reading material.

I lots a hwlabs SR1 radiator when I let water sit in one for a couple of months.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
corrosion5.jpg
RIP SR1, "water" is not as innocent as we all like to think!..smile.gif
sad-smiley-002.gif Let's all have a moment of silence for the fallen SR1.
So Martin, how much water did you leave in the rad? Just left over droplets after testing and you sealed it? Or actually filled the rad and sealed it?
I ask because I've had my radiators sitting for a few months, unsealed, and I know there were some left over droplets in there after running an external leak test

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post #118 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

sad-smiley-002.gif Let's all have a moment of silence for the fallen SR1.
So Martin, how much water did you leave in the rad? Just left over droplets after testing and you sealed it? Or actually filled the rad and sealed it?
I ask because I've had my radiators sitting for a few months, unsealed, and I know there were some left over droplets in there after running an external leak test

It was full of just water. I had it setup for testing 140mm fans with barbs and a piece of connecting tube.

i think the water sitting still is what accelerated the issue. A little reaction starts and the wster nearby becomes more and more conductive.

Surpisingly my MCR120 was stored exactly the same and survived (wirhout any visible damage) my accidental galvanic experiment..smile.gif Perhaps slightly differing solder composition.?

I would let any stored rads breath air, a couple drops probably wouldn't matter, but letting it air out with ports open a week or so to air out would be better.

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post #119 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

It was full of just water. I had it setup for testing 140mm fans with barbs and a piece of connecting tube.

i think the water sitting still is what accelerated the issue. A little reaction starts and the wster nearby becomes more and more conductive.

Surpisingly my MCR120 was stored exactly the same and survived the science..smile.gifPerhaps slightly differing solder composition.?

I would let any stored rads breath air, a couple drops probably wouldn't matter, but dry would be best.
Good, thanks for the reassurance.
That is very possible. I solder electronics and circuit boards all day at work and I know certain types of solder are better than others. I mistakenly used Acid Core solder where I shouldn't have and next time I looked at it, the copper traces had basically started dissolving.

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post #120 of 150 Old 01-12-2014, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Good, thanks for the reassurance.
That is very possible. I solder electronics and circuit boards all day at work and I know certain types of solder are better than others. I mistakenly used Acid Core solder where I shouldn't have and next time I looked at it, the copper traces had basically started dissolving.
Yeah, there are all sorts of solder alloys out there.

Wiki goes over just some of them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Seems the common radiator type is around 50% lead and 50% tin.

However I think all or most electronics are now ROHS compliant which doesn't allow lead. Wiki talks about Tin-Silver-Copper alloys as one common ROHS compliant solder.

Anyhow, "Tin" itself is pretty far down on the index table "Active Metal" and in direct metal to metal contact with the more noble copper/brass raditor metals.

corrosion1.jpg?w=614

Brew yourself up a nice little stagnant electrolyte ever increasing in conductivity and you can have success in moving metal with nothing more than water.thumb.gif

I ended up throwing out the SR1 rad, it was completely destroyed.

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