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post #21 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post


And for anyone whose done basic testing knows, theres really not much difference between AIO/CLC/Custom loop temps in term of temperatures, not up until you start getting into the 480mmx2 and so on type of custom loop.
The difference can be quite large and will vary on many factors based on airflow, ambient, delta and how much heat is being generated.
Difference can be noticed even with a 240 rad.
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Originally Posted by TTheuns View Post

My Corsair H105 has been making that kind of noise once every 2 hours since the day I installed it. Still running, so should be fine. I do agree for 120mm AIOs an air cooler is a way better option.
Sign of your pump say goodbye. Just gets worse over time.
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post #22 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 02:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sp33d Junki3 View Post

The difference can be quite large and will vary on many factors based on airflow, ambient, delta and how much heat is being generated.
Difference can be noticed even with a 240 rad.
Sign of your pump say goodbye. Just gets worse over time.

From a 240 rad to a 480 rad on a single cpu isnt going to be quite large. If you drop 3°C in water temp youre not going to drop 10°C off your cpu lol.

Lapping your IHS and waterblock will prob make a bigger difference then going from a 240 to a 480. I went from a 240 to a 240+360 and didnt notice a huge temp drop on my cpu. However my gpu dropped a whopping 30°C
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post #23 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

From a 240 rad to a 480 rad on a single cpu isnt going to be quite large. If you drop 3°C in water temp youre not going to drop 10°C off your cpu lol.
Didnt compare 240 to 480 rad. I'm talking about CLC to AIO/Custom.
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post #24 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's? Nah, he wants you to spend $1,000 on a custom water loop. i get it, it's his job. He wants you to spend $40 for a little metal fitting and $100 on a pump that costs $5 to manufacture. If that's what people want to do, go for it. Lots of people waste money on all kinds of hobbies and that's fine as long as you realize you really aren't going to get much pay-off for your investment.

Now, there's no doubt a custom loop will usually give better performance. They have higher flow rates for one. But the difference is not big enough for me to spend many hundreds or thousands of dollars on. Sorry, it's just not. Especially nowadays that CLC's have gotten so much better than they were 5 years ago.

And it's hysterical how the OP bashes glycol coolants when he sells them on his site. Not only that, he sells toxic Ethylene Glycol coolants and then claims they were certified as "safe" in an EPA lab. Note how the lab is EPA certified -- a clever use of words to trick you into believing the EPA itself has approved it as safe. They don't. They haven't. They never will. Ethylene Glycol is highly poisonous. 200mL can kill an adult human.

If you're going to run a custom loop, go buy some inhibited Propylene Glycol (PG) and some distilled water. That's all you need. PG is the safe alternative to Ethylene Glycol and is what is used in most commercial anti-freeze products today. EG was phased out decades ago (at least for consumer use). PG is safe to eat, drink or inhale. I am sitting here inhaling PG right now on my vape. PG has slightly lower thermal conductivity than EG, but it's not by much.

Inhibited PG can be had online for $25 a gallon. Search for Biodiesel stores (people who build their own biodiesel engines and run their own solar panels use inhibited PG as a coolant).
Sir, you have a mouth spouting lots of stuff with nothing of substance to back it up.

It does not cost $1000 to get decent water cooling. Quality loops start at about $100. For example Swiftech H220 X is $109.95.
www.swiftech.com/H220-X.aspx

Mayhem does not 'want you to buy' anything. The object of this tread is to show the shortcomings of CLC, not sell something.

Yes, Mayhem is a rep, but he reps a coolant line .. a coolant line that is used by Swiftech in their AIO line of coolers. What he is saying is 100% truth with supporting data when requested. The shortcomings of CLC are well know among experienced users. Some of us have been saying how terrible CLCs are from shortly after they were first released. While in the beginning only a few believed us while most believed all the CLC hype and hoopla, more and more have and are realizing we were telling the truth.

Mayhem is the first industry rep to come out of the closet about these problems. In doing so he has opened himself up to all kinds of possible repercussions I doubt you can even imagine.
  • CLC pumps maximum flow rate is extremely low.
  • CLC pump motors use less power to flow coolant than many fan motors use to flow air.
  • CLC system, complete with everything but fans weights about the same as a bare component radiator with no coolant or fittings. We are talking a complete CLC system; radiator, pump, waterblock, fittings, hoses and coolant.
  • CLC cools no better than top air coolers, but cost more, make way more noise, fail more often (generally pump failures), and when the do fail require a complete cooling system replacement before computer can be used. The only thing to fail on an air cooler is the fan, computer will still work at low load or any fan can be used until replacement arrives .. and fans cost a fraction of what a complete cooling system costs.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the hows' and whys' of CLC shortcomings

But it does take a person with the ability to listen to logic and truth. But it appears you are just another CLC zealot / fanatic with little or no grasp on reality .. like so many other CLC owners and liquid cooling wannabees. .

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post #25 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 02:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sp33d Junki3 View Post

Didnt compare 240 to 480 rad. I'm talking about CLC to AIO/Custom.

Thats probably even less haha. I went from air to full custom and didn't notice "quite large" temp drops, its a total myth. I was at 54°C at 1.088v on my noctua cooler, then at 50°C on my custom loop. Delided it and running bare die now at 1.2v it runs at around 46-48C so not a significant temp drop on the cpu and yes im using CLU on top of that.
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Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Sir, you have a mouth spouting lots of stuff with nothing of substance to back it up.

It does not cost $1000 to get decent water cooling. Quality loops start at about $100. For example Swiftech H220 X is $109.95.
www.swiftech.com/H220-X.aspx

Mayhem does not 'want you to buy' anything. The object of this tread is to show the shortcomings of CLC, not sell something.

Yes, Mayhem is a rep. But what he is saying is 100% truth with supporting data when requested. The shortcomings of CLC are well know among experienced users. Some of us have been saying how terrible CLCs are from shortly after they were first released. While in the beginning only a few believed us while most believed all the CLC hype and hoopla, more and more have and are realizing we were telling the truth.

Mayhem is the first industry rep to come out of the closet about these problems. In doing so he has opened himself up to all kinds of possible repercussions I doubt you can even imagine.
  • CLC pumps maximum flow rate is extremely low.
  • CLC pump motors use less power to flow coolant than many fan motors use to flow air.
  • CLC system, complete with everything but fans weights about the same as a bare component radiator with no coolant or fittings. We are talking a complete CLC system; radiator, pump, waterblock, fittings, hoses and coolant.
  • CLC cools no better than top air coolers, but cost more, make way more noise, fail more often (generally pump failures), and when the do fail require a complete cooling system replacement before computer can be used. The only thing to fail on an air cooler is the fan, computer will still work at low load or any fan can be used until replacement arrives .. and fans cost a fraction of what a complete cooling system costs.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the hows' and whys' of CLC shortcomings

Doyll he didnt say a decent loop he said a custom loop and we all know they can get that high easily. Mine is super simple and is around 500€.

The switftech isnt a CLC its an AIO even listed so on their site, thats another big difference.

While i do agree with all CLC points you made, ill point out that again theres quite a handful of cards that come factory built with CLCs and have had ZERO issues. Again the issue isn't the CLC itself but the build quality. I could say the same about 1000$ thats using cheap parts, its not the custom loops fault but the QUALITY.

You guys should check out techyescity who made a waterloop for 50$ and even he said himself temps weren't great, he pretty much used a block with no fins and a 7$ pump and guess what it still cooled about the same as your average air cooler. Again you can't say oh custom loops are crapped based on that, no its crap because its crap quality lol.

He did however see about a 40°C temp drop on the CPU just by sanding down the concave cpu block to perfectly flat. Goes to show you that no matter what, pressure and the most minimal amount of TIM will make more difference then anything else.
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post #26 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

Doyll he didnt say a decent loop he said a custom loop and we all know they can get that high easily. Mine is super simple and is around 500€.

The switftech isnt a CLC its an AIO even listed so on their site, thats another big difference.

While i do agree with all CLC points you made, ill point out that again theres quite a handful of cards that come factory built with CLCs and have had ZERO issues. Again the issue isn't the CLC itself but the build quality. I could say the same about 1000$ thats using cheap parts, its not the custom loops fault but the QUALITY.

You guys should check out techyescity who made a waterloop for 50$ and even he said himself temps weren't great, he pretty much used a block with no fins and a 7$ pump and guess what it still cooled about the same as your average air cooler. Again you can't say oh custom loops are crapped based on that, no its crap because its crap quality lol.

He did however see about a 40°C temp drop on the CPU just by sanding down the concave cpu block to perfectly flat. Goes to show you that no matter what, pressure and the most minimal amount of TIM will make more difference then anything else.
Okay, we can make a custom loop (buy a kit) that is also a 'decent loop' for about $150 that is light-years better than any CLC made.

CLCs are a sub group of AIOs,

This 'handfull of cards' are relatively new and are using the same CLCs that are sold as CPU CLCs. They are almost all Asetek and almost all use the same couple of pump/block systems, same cheap high fin density aluminum radiators and same coolant. I don't know of any CLCs that have 'quality' in them.

Poor quality and low cost do not always go hand in hand. Although we rarely see high quiality at low cost, I think it is fair to say CLCs are poor quality, and not low cost.

A good air cooler is better than most CLCs, and a top tier air cooler easily cools as well a 'top tier' CLCs at much lower noise levels. The few air coolers with fans similar to what is needed on CLC radiators actually cool much better than CLCs do. Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E & IB-E Extreme and Silverstone HE01 coolers are ones I know that do this. Put simlar fans on many other mid to top tier coolers and get similar results. Thermalright TRUE Spirit 140 Power with TY-143 fan/s is about 8c cooler than with stock fans .. and about 11 better than NH-D14 with stock fans. If we can agree NH-D14 is maybe 3c warmer than best top tier air coolers using their stock fans, this is still 8c more cooling .. lower temps than CLCs give at same noise level.
Link to H100 vs Silver Arrow SB-E & Extreme

If you would like to see more test results showing this data, start a thread and let me know. I'll most the data and sources

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Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Okay, we can make a custom loop (buy a kit) that is also a 'decent loop' for about $150 that is light-years better than any CLC made.

CLCs are a sub group of AIOs,

This 'handfull of cards' are relatively new and are using the same CLCs that are sold as CPU CLCs. They are almost all Asetek and almost all use the same couple of pump/block systems, same cheap high fin density aluminum radiators and same coolant. I don't know of any CLCs that have 'quality' in them.

Poor quality and low cost do not always go hand in hand. Although we rarely see high quiality at low cost, I think it is fair to say CLCs are poor quality, and not low cost.

A good air cooler is better than most CLCs, and a top tier air cooler easily cools as well a 'top tier' CLCs at much lower noise levels. The few air coolers with fans similar to what is needed on CLC radiators actually cool much better than CLCs do. Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E & IB-E Extreme and Silverstone HE01 coolers are ones I know that do this. Put simlar fans on many other mid to top tier coolers and get similar results. Thermalright TRUE Spirit 140 Power with TY-143 fan/s is about 8c cooler than with stock fans .. and about 11 better than NH-D14 with stock fans. If we can agree NH-D14 is maybe 3c warmer than best top tier air coolers using their stock fans, this is still 8c more cooling .. lower temps than CLCs give at same noise level.
Link to H100 vs Silver Arrow SB-E & Extreme

If you would like to see more test results showing this data, start a thread and let me know. I'll most the data and sources

Yes we can just like my first loop was and in terms of temps i wouldn't say its light years ahead. Even a custom loop will cool a cpu as well as a high end air cooler i dont disagree there, like i said i went from 54°C to 50°C from Noctua to a custom cpu loop with a 240mm rad so that should say something, once i added another rad run bare die i run 1-2°C cooler but with 120mv MORE. And again where it matters is when overclocking, not too many air coolers can stay under 60°C with 1.3v like my loop can.

For quietness nothing beats air coolers we know that for FACT, the thing is most people watercool CPUs thinking there going to get better temps and thats just not true, like i said unless you do a custom loop with at least a 360 rad but then again the ekwb predator 360 does the same thing haha. Where watercooling matters the most is for GPUs as those make the most noise and most heat. I dropped 30°C from mine and much quieter while gaming.
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post #28 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 03:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's? Nah, he wants you to spend $1,000 on a custom water loop. i get it, it's his job. He wants you to spend $40 for a little metal fitting and $100 on a pump that costs $5 to manufacture. If that's what people want to do, go for it. Lots of people waste money on all kinds of hobbies and that's fine as long as you realize you really aren't going to get much pay-off for your investment.

Now, there's no doubt a custom loop will usually give better performance. They have higher flow rates for one. But the difference is not big enough for me to spend many hundreds or thousands of dollars on. Sorry, it's just not. Especially nowadays that CLC's have gotten so much better than they were 5 years ago.

And it's hysterical how the OP bashes glycol coolants when he sells them on his site. Not only that, he sells toxic Ethylene Glycol coolants and then claims they were certified as "safe" in an EPA lab. Note how the lab is EPA certified -- a clever use of words to trick you into believing the EPA itself has approved it as safe. They don't. They haven't. They never will. Ethylene Glycol is highly poisonous. 200mL can kill an adult human.

If you're going to run a custom loop, go buy some inhibited Propylene Glycol (PG) and some distilled water. That's all you need. PG is the safe alternative to Ethylene Glycol and is what is used in most commercial anti-freeze products today. EG was phased out decades ago (at least for consumer use). PG is safe to eat, drink or inhale. I am sitting here inhaling PG right now on my vape. PG has slightly lower thermal conductivity than EG, but it's not by much.

Inhibited PG can be had online for $25 a gallon. Search for Biodiesel stores (people who build their own biodiesel engines and run their own solar panels use inhibited PG as a coolant).

"wants you to spend 1,000$" are you kidding?? the dude sells COOLANT and COOLANT ADDITIVES....

lol your exaggerations are ridiculous, and sure, just because the OP produces a product that can only be used with custom loops, does not imply the connotations you make here... Have you ever considered the fact that maybe some people like you say, have hobbies that they love and enjoy, and then end up somehow creating a business or profiting from said hobby? Watercooling is a niche market..... even after all this growth, every single company out there (even one as big as EK) still started as 1 guy who was simply an enthusiast whom loved to overclock.... so dont bring your negative corporate motivations in here because its just not true....

the only way CLCs have gotten better is in the sense that they have steered toward CUSTOM loop characteristics.... You cant sit there and make broad statements about custom loops and play them off as fact because custom loops are just that... CUSTOM, so every single one is different, built for different purposes.... and regardless, you say yourself that you wouldn't build a custom loop of expensive components so obviously you could never speak for any sort of characteristics or direction behind one.

Its just so annoying for me when I see people like you talk in such a fashion.... because its just ignorance at its finest. It always makes me wonder if you go up to people who are driving Ferraris. or Lamborghinis, or wearing Rolex watches and then make the same silly remarks to them.
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Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

Yes we can just like my first loop was and in terms of temps i wouldn't say its light years ahead. Even a custom loop will cool a cpu as well as a high end air cooler i dont disagree there, like i said i went from 54°C to 50°C from Noctua to a custom cpu loop with a 240mm rad so that should say something, once i added another rad run bare die i run 1-2°C cooler but with 120mv MORE. And again where it matters is when overclocking, not too many air coolers can stay under 60°C with 1.3v like my loop can.

For quietness nothing beats air coolers we know that for FACT, the thing is most people watercool CPUs thinking there going to get better temps and thats just not true, like i said unless you do a custom loop with at least a 360 rad but then again the ekwb predator 360 does the same thing haha. Where watercooling matters the most is for GPUs as those make the most noise and most heat. I dropped 30°C from mine and much quieter while gaming.

*sigh*

again, trying to speak in regards to custom loops in the way you have is simply not factual.... CUSTOM is case-by-case and specially crafted for each individual....

and regardless, with that being said, your belief that a custom loop isnt that big of a difference is RIDICULOUS. You must have done something way off when building your first loop or just lacking basic fundamental understanding of heat and fluid dynamics.

My first loop was VERY basic and I still had a 25c difference on average with my CPU and 40c nearly with my graphics card.... I was using an Asrock M8 with a 4770k, even with stock clocks and the side panel off, at 100% load with prime 95 my CPU couldnt get a single core under 70c when stress testing and was LOUD. After building a custom loop with JUST a 120mm radiator and a swiftech apogee CPU block that has an integrated DDC pump, my CPU was averaging right around 50c per core under the same stress testing parameters.

Its really simple guys.... just look at the bigger picture, its not hard to understand how the typical components that people use when building their custom loops have HUGE advantages over a simple AIO.

Daniel of Singularity Computers is a genius and the best system builder on Earth.... The channel and information that he has been so generous and benevolent share with everyone, should indeed be soaked in by.... everyone!
Thank you Daniel!
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I highly doubt you even know about watercooling. You can build a nice custom loop for well under $500 or even lower.
CLC for the likes of Asetek are a waste and just bad for the industry. Too many times I spent over the years replacing them in systems and throwing them out.

The post you are replying to points out one of the biggest ways that they are bad for the industry - they have created those types of beliefs. We have an already underinformed consumer base, and said consumer base finds it far easier to process marketing material and farfetched forum posts than factual information. Now we are stuck with a large group of users who may as well be in a cult, totally brain washed, and who live in a complete fantasy world they created where things like lowering CFM and static pressure drops your temps 20C.

And, of course, they get completely fanatical when someone points out a shortcoming of their beloved CLCs. This thread was made by the rep of a company who supplies coolants, and talks about the way said coolants break down over time, yet the CLC fan base has degraded it to their usual discussion of everything else but....
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post #30 of 366 Old 06-22-2016, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bluej511 View Post

Yes we can just like my first loop was and in terms of temps i wouldn't say its light years ahead. Even a custom loop will cool a cpu as well as a high end air cooler i dont disagree there, like i said i went from 54°C to 50°C from Noctua to a custom cpu loop with a 240mm rad so that should say something, once i added another rad run bare die i run 1-2°C cooler but with 120mv MORE. And again where it matters is when overclocking, not too many air coolers can stay under 60°C with 1.3v like my loop can.

For quietness nothing beats air coolers we know that for FACT, the thing is most people watercool CPUs thinking there going to get better temps and thats just not true, like i said unless you do a custom loop with at least a 360 rad but then again the ekwb predator 360 does the same thing haha. Where watercooling matters the most is for GPUs as those make the most noise and most heat. I dropped 30°C from mine and much quieter while gaming.
Indeed!

And when we are talking 54c to 50c we are not really making any difference in anything. 54c (even on an AMD) is very good. Lowering it to 50c is just 'bragging rights' than 'improved cooling]'. Don't get me wrong, I do it all the time .. even if it make no real difference is system life or noise levels. It's that darn cooling monkey on my back. biggrin.gif

Sorry, but saying you get 4c better cooling with a good $500 cooling loop compared to an air cooler costing $70 is not playing fair. You could probably lower your temps another 4c with better waterblock and more radiator .. for another $400+.

I agree, it's GPU cooling that is the challange on air. CPUs are a cake walk.
It is much harder to achieve quiet GPUs on air, especially multiple GPUs.

I don't know of any off the shelf GPU with full cover waterblock .. only CPU CLCs adapted to mount on GPU processor .. meaning everything else that need cooling has to be done with air.

But there really are no GPU air coolers designed to keep cool intake air separate from their heated exhaust air. Well, the reference blowers kinda do, but they are definitely not quiet.
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