Nick911

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-635
That sub owns

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shortfuse

I understand ur point low freq on sub. but sub woofers are concentrated frequency ( higher freq ) thats why u use a left and right speakers, and surround sound speakers for those lower freq. hence pre out on sub woofers. by the way MANYAK din ako lol..

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technodanvan

A few thoughts on the matter...

First of all buying a receiver now is what makes sense - if you really need to drop money now. Keep in mind this will likely be the least expensive piece of the puzzle overall and you will probably want to save until you can purchase all of the new speakers at the same time, suggesting you may want to consider just saving until you can get all the pieces together. Of course we all get that 'itch' at times so I understand it's difficult to fight off...i've certainly lost that battle on many an occasion.

So assuming you end up getting a receiver, for the time being I say you use whatever speakers you currently have simply because to buy interim speakers is a waste of money unless you have a planned use for them later. Perhaps use them in a garage/workshop, or perhaps in a den, or computer room. Point is there is no point in getting them unless you either don't mind taking the hit on your wallet when you try to craigslist/ebay them, or you have a use for them later.

Obviously using a new receiver with your current speakers will not gain you much in the way of performance, suggesting that holding off and buying the whole package is a good idea stilll...

In any case, to the receiver selection.

When I bought my first receiver (and the one since then) I spent a considerable amount of time in various stores auditioning them on a bunch of different speakers with a CD of my own making. I tend to listen to more music than movies so this is my baseline - movie performance will be there if it can play well recorded music as it was meant to be played. Switching between receivers on even the same set of speakers produces quite a remarkable difference, even in stereo! This unfortunately means that even in stereo modes many companies have some form of processing in the way.

In any case, there were only two companies (at the time, say 2002 first and 2007 second) that I considered to have 'musical' receivers. These two brands were Pioneer Elite and Harman/Kardon. Really didn't make a difference which model, those with more power clearly had more defined bass on bigger speakers, but other than that they were equals. I eventually chose Harman/Kardon and have stuck with them since 2002 as they have repeatedly shown that they remain very musical, powerful, and extraordinarily durable. From listening to quiet tracks on my own to powering college parties where the speakers (up to 14 on a single receiver, each 8 ohms wired into a 4 ohm load that the H/K is 'technically' not rated for) had to keep up with a pair of 18" subs with 1200 watts to each. Even through all that, even through random people just cranking it up more to where I 'may' have throw them out of the house was not enough to hurt the receiver and it (right this moment in fact) is just as musical as it ever was. (H/K AVR-7200)

So yes, durability is key.

Of the other brands I found Sony ES and Yamaha to come in a consistent second. They both have a weird...tinny....quality to them. I'm not certain how to explain it, it was just an impression I had. it wasn't bad, just different.

Denon sounded dead and lifeless, Onkyo as well but to a much more tolerable degree. I haven't managed to come across a Marantz demo unit that didn't look like it had been abused, so I won't comment on them as I think it would be unfair and likely uncharacteristic of them.

Back to Harman/Kardon...

At the time I bought my first H/K (AVR-125, 45 watts/channel) there were two reasons I picked it over Pioneer Elite. One was price, PE really doesn't have anything all that low end. The second was H/K didn't have 50 different sound modes, it had 5. I HATE sound modes. Stereo, Dolby Digital, DTS, and whatever the new ones are - this is all anyone needs (with the possible exception of 5/6/7 channel stereo for parties) as all the other modes are worthless and awful. Even those on the H/K are this way, but at least it doesn't take long to scroll through them.

Anyway, I'm a fan of H/K. Not so much a fan of their new design, but I DID buy a refurbished AVR-146 directly from H/K on eBay for under $100 shipped. Absolutely great receiver for a small room and in my case, for the computer.

On to technodan's thoughts on speakers:

I'll keep this brief because I haven't heard any of these newer speakers most people at AVR Forums talk about, and the ones I have heard I'm not impressed with. Seems most of the speakers people like and purchase en mass on forums never sound that great to me. Maybe I'm jaded, I dunno.

In any case, I will say you should consider building your own set from plans online. of course if you don't have the tools available to you this can be expensive (due to buying the tools) but if you do (router and table saw) then building great speakers can be very affordable.

I'll get off that horse unless there is more interest in it...

But my last thought is on the center channel, and some (if not most) people will disagree with me. I have found that a center channel is not necessary for the majority of rooms. I will say that it is dependent on you having two good front speakers that have been properly placed in the room, and also dependent on room size. If your room is as small as you show it may work or it may not, the smaller the room the less likely you can get away with it. Especially with a curved couch like it appears you have.

In any case, I've found movies to sound better without it and shutting off the center channel on the receiver. This will basically make the receiver emulate the center through the mains, and if they are well placed and have decent imaging everything will come from where it should.

Manyak

@ Technodan:


It sounds like your opinions probably closely match mine, with the musical sound and center channel thing and all. I'm not too familiar with home equipment, but I can run circles around the car audio market. I've tried/seen hundreds of different decks/amps/speakers in cars from practically every brand there is, and Pioneer - at least for the mids/highs - sounds the best IMO (and they aren't the most expensive either, not by a long shot). The sound that comes out of their decks and amps is crystal clear. So I really believe you if you say that their home audio stuff is good as well. But yeah, their prices aren't exactly what I was hoping for . Though I'll definitely look into them and H/K quite a bit.


As for the speakers, I sure as hell don't mind building my own. I've got both a table saw and jigsaw (no router though), and I know how to design the enclosures myself from the thiele-small specs from experience building sub boxes and car speaker mounts lol. Except I have no idea on what drivers to pick without hearing them. And the ones I'm familiar with - car ones - won't sound right in a large space no matter what the enclosure. So I'd need a point in the right direction with that.

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ZeosPantera

OK. I wont yell and scream. Instead I will educate. In a modern surround sound the only shaking you should "feel" is from the .1 sub. That subwoofers job is to be an "effect" and indeed should not be heard. However, if you have a micro system.. Like so.



This type of system is incapable of producing audible bass, mid-bass and in most fail cases.. midrange. So the reciever and sub it is packaged with sends a good deal of that normal "engine rumble" and "Barry white" that would be produced in a larger speaker and throw it down to the sub.. from every channel. Then that same sub has to do the .1 explosions and ... well explosions and occasionally some dinosaur footsteps.

Now onto an audioholics point of view. If you were to setup a room for strictly critical audio listening, it would look like this.



Just a stereo set of speakers capable of producing the limits of audible sound. Huge subwoofers almost never come into it. I have even been told that some audioholics hang their subwoofers above the floor from steel cables to try and reduce as much "room shake" as possible and instead receive only the "sound" of 50-60hz.

So having towers all around is the best way to guarantee you hear everything that the channels are trying to play. I could even persuade some to have a dedicated subwoofer/mid-bass woofer on EVERY CHANNEL! Why do you think that most modern receivers have Large/Small speaker setting on the channels? To divert bass away from those crap speakers when on small.

Sub's have very little to do with a good sounding home theater. They are the main "wow" factor, something you can boast about. "Did you feel that? Yeah I felt that". In most music modes (at least on my denon) the .1 sub is completely disabled.

As you predicted. I disagree. Especially in a small room. You want to fixate the center to a single point. If you try and phantom the center through your L/R you will end up having anyone sitting even slightly off center in the room hearing the dialog and effects coming much more pronounced from either the left or right depending on seating position. Then to correct that you have to move the L/R directly next to the monitor and you lose imaging.


I have no qualms with H/K. Do some research outside this forums and make a decision that best suits your needs and desires.

Car audio SUCKS.. I hate all of it. I can't wait for the day I have a vehicle capable of running full sized 8 ohm home theater monitor speakers and 110v equipment. Even if it only lasts 2 years and needs replacement. Infinite baffle can suck my ****.


Link to relevant info!!!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rs-subwoofers/

Don't read too far into those guy's logic and reasoning. It will only confuse and distort your very happy life.

You don't EVER want to get to the point where you try a 4th Order Bandpass subwoofer only to find yourself plugging numbers into THIS!!!

Source: http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpsubwoof...q_equation.php

PS.. Ah Manyak I see your monitor preference is a wise one... or three :P

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technodanvan

^^^

To be fair, nobody should ever make a bandpass box anyway.

There are many plans for all kinds of different speakers out there - with HUGE ranges in price. I wouldn't recommend trying to design your own until you try a predesigned set first - this link is to the Dayton III project which come out to be inexpensive and quite impressive. I helped a buddy build a pair of these (converted to tower form) back in college and they are pretty fantastic - especially given the low cost. Honestly since I don't do much in the way of movies, if/when I move out of this dinky apartment I will probably just make 4-7 of those and call it a day, then use my other two for music only. These really do offer a lot in the way of clarity, and certainly do have impressive enough bass that you can get away without a sub.

There are a bunch of other sites with plans...Parts Express, AVS Forums, and DIYAudio.com all have sections with some projects listed. Of course the guys at any of them would be able to offer a bunch of help as well. There are a bunch of personal pages from guys that just keep making stuff but I can't seem to track any of them down right now...just look around for a bit and you might see something you like.

The downside of all this, of course, is that you can't hear them first and have to take the word of the designer as fact. But I like building stuff (it keeps me from being bored) so in my case even if these things don't sound as good as advertised it was still 'probably' fun to make them.

Lastly, Parts Express has kits you can buy that has pretty much everything done and you just need to assemble it. I've never heard them, so I can't make any justifiable comments. However, I do think that Dayton products are extremely good for the price and probably impossible to beat.

I'm actually in the process of rebuilding some cabinets I made in college so they actually look nice...so I've gotta get back to it. Good luck with your decision!

Edit: I would recommend getting a catalog from both Parts Express and Madisound to browse through.

Manyak

Not just all that, but the whole idea of using a single, separate subwoofer was to a) reduce costs and b) make up for the shortcomings of cheaper speakers.


The problem is that HT speakers will never sound as nice in a car as they do in a house, and vice versa, no matter what you do. It has to do with the listening distance and volume of the 'room'. I've tried both ways and believe me its not happening.

The real problem with the car audio market is that its almost entirely made up of a) kids who just want to show off how loud it can be, and b) bass SPL junkies. So its really easy for a good product to drown in a sea of junk that's just made to sell en masse. You've got to pick each component very carefully, and put some effort into remodeling the car with speaker mounts that actually make sense (if you notice, almost no car actually points the speakers at you, and instead points them at your legs or the windshields, which is absolutely terrible for the sound). You've gotta take the time to figure out the best enclosure and positioning for the subs in the trunk instead of just trying to show off some flashy lights under a plexiglass floor, because even an inch or two can make a big difference (and always make sure you mix different sizes to get accurate bass - and the same goes for speakers).

But believe me, it's absolutely possible to get a great sounding system in a car. It just takes a lot of work.


lol dude, I hate bandpass enclosures, they sound muddy as all hell . You want louder low frequency bass? Go buy a larger sub. Or two. Just don't do the bandpass thing

But thanks for that forum link, if I build them that's gonna help a lot

Either way, in case I don't feel like building them for whatever reason, what towers should I be looking at?

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Manyak

Here's the thing though. The way I see it, if I'm going to actually spend the time to build something it's gotta be better than what I can afford to just buy. I'm sure that a bit more money spent on the components will end up with much better sound than what that "kit" gives . And since I can afford it, why not?

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Microsis

Didn't read the rest of thread, but here is my input:

Yamaha RX-V465 (might be able to find it cheaper on eBay, I did)

Why? HD audio (dts-HD, Dolby TrueHD) in addition to 1080p video.

Speakers I bought: Polk Audio Monitor 60s (I paid $150 shipped for them a few weeks ago. They are now $120 shipped!!!) - Amazing sound (little low on the bass, but that is what subs are for. Their mid range and high end are amazing)

As far as subwoofer, I'm still looking at getting the PSW10 10" or the PSW505 12" to match the monitors.

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ZeosPantera

Starting from the bottom up. Sub's can't really match monitors. Just brand matching is what your doing.

I like polk speakers. But you really need to step it up to the 500+ a piece to get any full range quality out of them. Like you said lacking in bass wont fly for this guy.

And I was impressed by the spec of that yamaha.. 105watts a channel, 4HDMI in's, HDaudio.. then I saw the back



Looks like they left out half the speaker posts. Clip-ins? for center and surround? with 105Watts per channel and clip-ins I can not take this amp seriously.

Heres the back of the Denon Avr-890. Which granted is more money ~550.

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