Microsis

Not to hijack this thread, but what subwoofer would you recommend in the $150-200 range?

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Hoodcom

Here are two receivers I'd recommend:

VSX-23TXH:


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...VSX-23TXH.Kuro

and maybe the SC-25:


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU.../ci.SC-27.Kuro


Or if you can find one used, a Pioneer VSX-90TXV is pretty good! I own one:
-Pictures found online-



-Picture of mine in my setup-

Kenwood amp powering my front speakers.

From what I can tell you about the model like mine, is that it does offer up conversion from composite and S-video to Component.

HDMI is pass through, sadly, though does have a lot of inputs. 1 AV and S-video connecter in the front, Four more in the back, three assignable Component inputs. Two inputs (DVR1/VCR1 and 2 both have out puts for said recorders. Two assignable HDMI ports, two assignable digital coax in, three assignable opticals in, one optical out. Oh, and one optical in in the front too, so make that four.

CD in, CD-R/Tape/MD in, ipod direct connection... multichannel in, ect.

I can go on and on, lol, but I do recommend this too, if you can find a used one. It has everything I need, maybe more could be added, but I filled up all the inputs with all my game systems, DVD player, Sat. (I have a lot of old game consoles.. lol)

I compared these to Harmon Kardon, the Pioneer Elites offer more inputs. (From what I've seen).

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technodanvan

Fair enough, and likely correct. Think of it just like building a computer vs. buying computer kits vs. buying a Dell (or equivalent). No matter which way you go, you may be able to end up with a very similar product but with varying amounts of work and money to put into it.

In the case of DIY speakers, a large chunk of money can be dropped on finish alone. This is where in college I was more than happy to leave speakers alone and just marvel in the beauty of MDF and glue stains. Now, I'm to the point where I'd like to get some sort of decent looking setup going.

If you're married/have a girlfriend/hope to someday have a girlfriend, I would suggest finishing the speakers. Veneer or paint, whatever you like...it's a lot of work.

Humble Homemade Hifi is a great site that has a bunch of projects and information pages on it...all done by one guy. I believe he is overseas (or at least has a ridiculous paycheck coming his way) as some of the products he uses are simply out of this world expensive and/or tough to find here. I would recommend looking through his stuff to get some ideas about what you want.

I would like to take a moment to point out that a proper bookshelf speaker (say, a 6" driver + tweeter) is certainly welcome in a home theater environment, and music as well. A well designed bookshelf-size speaker can drop to a usable 50-55 Hz which makes melding it with a subwoofer fairly easy and will likely ease the load on your wallet considerably. It's when you have a small enough speaker that can only get to, say 120 Hz or so that you have issues. Asking a subwoofer to play those frequencies will usually come at a cost for the lower frequencies. Add that to the ability of the human ear to begin to 'tune in' to the subwoofer around 140-150 Hz and you get what I like to call "the Bose effect", namely you start to key in on the sub for some noises.

So to prevent this, use speakers (bookshelves or towers) that can get below 100 Hz without a problem and tune the crossover on the subwoofer accordingly - any bass that comes from it (provided it is an ideal placement) should be roughly omnidirectional and should appear to be everywhere and not come from one spot.

Despite what was said earlier in this thread, a subwoofer should not simply exist for the 'wow' factor. Virtually no tower speaker that is remotely affordable can cover the full range of human hearing. A large moderately affordable tower may be able to get down to a usable frequency (-3 dB) of maybe 28-30 Hz. For music outside of some rap and techno, this is pretty adequate. For movies, not so much. Dropping down to 20 Hz becomes essential for movies, anything below that does technically qualify for the 'wow' factor as it is inaudible, but there are more than a handful of "popular" action movies that will drop well below 20 Hz for explosions and such. Honestly I don't think this should be a worry in your case as getting that low isn't easy without having size...and your room might not really work well with that big of a subwoofer.

Edit: I would wait until you have all the other speakers and whatnot done before looking into a subwoofer, as was said you might get by without one at all.

At that price range you would be hard-pressed to find something that would really get very low. This was previously posted here and honestly is going to be about the only thing that will produce much bass for that price. From reputable subwoofer companies like HSU or Elemental Designs you're looking at around $300 for a base unit...

Hoodcom

Ooh! I have to look into that! I must thank you for that, even though you were trying to help Manyak.

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Manyak

I saw that SC-25 a little earlier....man it looks sweet as hell. I just really don't know about spending a whole $1000 on it.


lol my first sub enclosures had that beautiful MDF look as well . Yeah I'll definitely be finishing them. I don't care much about what the finish exactly is, but of course they've got to look decent to be in the living room. If it was for my computer room I probably wouldn't mind the bare MDF since its not part of the house that has to be presentable to anyone, but never in the living room.


And, well, I was kind of thinking of sticking a full 12" sub on each of the front speakers at least (mainly for music), and then going with a standalone 15" or 18" sub that would handle all the really low frequencies for explosion vibrations and stuff. Of course it all ends up being dependent on the price, especially with the extra power the speakers would need, but that would be pretty sweet. And I could easily test to see if the subs would cancel each other out at any seat in the room by using my car subs (I know they won't sound that good, but at least this much can be tested out).

But the one thing I know for sure is that a sub works great in this room, as the current one has a 12" driver and you can definitely hear and feel the really low frequencies. But weather or not a separate sub would be necessary after already putting some in the towers is a whole other story .

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technodanvan

Well, first off I think we need to define a subwoofer. A 'real' subwoofer will generally require a couple hundred watts going to it, meaning that a receiver simply wouldn't have the juice to really get it going, especially when combined with other power-hungry drivers. Now getting a 10-12" driver is easily possible and they will certainly extend your range a bit. The major downside of that is you'll now have a 3-way crossover to design/assemble which is considerably more complicated. The size of the speaker will also be dramatically increased, which may make placement more difficult.

Here is a design that uses a pair of 10" drivers...it's one of the few I've ever seen going that large (without being terribly expensive). Even these would probably cost ~$750 finished for a pair - the drivers themselves are fairly inexpensive but the ribbon tweeter is not, nor are the recommended crossover components.

The Magna Cum Laude looks like an interesting project and may be sort of what you are looking for. I'm not particularly impressed with the frequency response chart and have difficulty believing they sound all that impressive, but that is probably due to never hearing a big speaker like that sound good. I intend to do a similar project of my own design at some point in the future, but that probably won't happen for a few years and I'll use a dedicated power amp for the job.

Here is a link to the Parts Express Project Showcase that has some walkthrough of different designs. There are a few that would fit the bill for what you want.

Lastly, I just want to say you might want to reconsider the large driver approach. If you end up buying loudspeakers there is a slim chance that you would get anything beyond maybe ported 7-8" drivers simply due to cost. But more than that, the fidelity of the speaker will be reduced with even an additional 10" woofer. Most receivers simply won't be able to power it efficiently at high levels and I think you would find that it would struggle. Better to have multiple small drivers to increase your surface area and displacement.

Basically what I'm saying is a pair of 6" drivers WILL get you to 40Hz with a properly tuned port. You know "Intergalactic" by the Beastie Boys? I never knew there was a bass hit in the background until those Dayton III speakers I helped a buddy with were up and running.

This probably tells you more about how often I listen to the Beastie Boys than anything else...but still.

Edit:

Back to the receivers for a minute. There are only a few 'needs' when looking at them.

1. Digital Inputs: Another member was saying that the Pioneer Elite won out over H/K (and this goes for all brands of course) simply because of the number of inputs. Count up the devices you have and determine how many you'll need. In my case, right now I 'need' one, just for my Xbox. However, I know I'll be buying a new Oppo BD player in the fairly near future, and I can't rule the possibility of someday owning a Wii, PS3, HD Radio, etc, etc. So my 'minimum' right now is 4 digital inputs. Makes sure they're the right kind of course, I generally prefer optical over coax simply because the technology is cooler, but they both work equally well. The downside of course is some devices require a certain type and don't come with both.

2. HDMI Switching/Video Processing: This is not a big deal for me as I don't mind switching inputs on the TV, and I prefer to have the DVD/BD player itself do any processing necessary. That said, many new receivers have good on screen displays that are sometimes needed to utilize certain features. Typically these will only be on the crazy high end models, but it has trickled down to the lower-end ones.

3. Sound modes: And I mean REAL sound modes. Does it come with all the Dolby Digital variants and the HD variants and all that jazz? Does it come with too many useless ones?

4. Preouts: This is more important than power as far as I'm concerned as it will affect the ability to upgrade in the future. Especially since you are interested in bigger speakers, I would look for a lower end receiver that has these four criteria - then use it for preamp duties with a dedicated power amp.

5. Power: Almost irrelevant. Higher end models have more, but why? My 40 watt/channel Harman/Kardon would take speakers rated at a measly 86 db/1 watt/1 meter and make them sing at any level you want. Sure, you had to basically turn the knob to 11, but once it was there that was about the highest level you would want to listen to anything at anyway. My newer Harman Kardon at 110 watts/channel can play louder without cranking the knob as much, but I also have more efficient speakers too. The point is, you don't need the crazy powerful ultra expensive receivers as long as you have speakers that are even moderately efficient.

You do, however, need amps to go along with that wattage - especially when you have big speakers. Bigger will 'generally' mean more efficient, but it may come at a cost with those additional drivers. Most DIY speakers will also be rated for 4 ohms, and while I am perfectly happy keeping that load on my H/K all day (my current towers are 3.8 Ohms, I have some smaller ones that are closer to 3.5 right now) you might not feel so comfortable doing that - especially with 5 speakers and an untested receiver.

Edit 2:

I've been thinking on it a bit more, you could do a traditional D'Appolito design (the Dayton III is that, a pair of moderately sized woofers paired with a tweeter in between with a port) that has been modified from it's current "bookshelf size" to a tower. You would have a considerable amount of space in the bottom at around 24" tall x 12" deep x 8" wide, giving you around 1.6 ft^3 to play with. In this space you could probably fit a 10-12" subwoofer on the side, and you may be able to cram a small plate amp on the back.

Alternatively you could "flare out" the base by making a sort of 'A' shape with the bookshelf sitting on top. Then you might be able to get a larger woofer on the front and you wold certainly had more room for a plate amp on the back.

I'm saying this but you understand it wouldn't really fulfill what you want - you wouldn't have a completely full range speaker so much as you just integrated a subwoofer in the same cabinet. it would still be getting a signal directly from the subwoofer output on the receiver.

ZeosPantera

I wouldn't go bigger then an 8' or 10" per front channel if your interested in music. Currently have a passive 10" Design Acoustics "bass expander" matched with those little Cerwin-Vega monitors and I wish it were an 8". Still a bit boomy for music but not horrible. Also that passive DA reaches up and plays near the 400Hz range. Which is why its a "Bass Expander" and not a sub-woofer. Only wish I could find more Mid-Bass passive boxes like that now-a-days. Passive subs were/are so nice.

Yes, nothing like an 18" downfiring driver to act as your .1, Only issue I am detecting with all of this is .... where the hell are you going to fit it?

Actually I'd rather have this pair instead of the 18.. http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=682

EDIT.. Having read technodanvan reply now I must say if you Can't, you Won't and you Don't STOP.. You will lose yourself to "the madness".

When I run music through my denon I go Neo:6 DTS Music mode and it really uses all the channels perfectly. Any mono signals are translated from L/R to ALSO play out of the center and any distinct left or right channel data stays in the left or right channels. Best thing since stereo.

Buy the full towers you want (or build). Keep them simple and small-ish. Should those not go down as far as you like.. Build either one or two passive subwoofer boxes and add them on to the center and L/R. Nothing insane. Just a speaker in a ported box. Simple crossover. Shouldn't need hundreds of watts to get sound out of it. I am currently running my 2.1 with the CV's and the DA 10" off a used Niles 50W per channel TV cutoff amp. Some of the best sound for 100 watts you will ever hear. So at 100 Watts per channel you should be ok to do the towers and IF NEED BE.. the expansion boxes.

Links to Ebay Now
10" Polk Drivers
Passive Xover

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Hoodcom

Well, surely the slightly lower model would be enough, or heck, a used Elite the same model as mine. Unless you want all the top-notch features, LAN, and the latest highest end surround sound modes.


By the way, on my setup, my Kenwood amp pushes 200watts RMS into each front speaker, at 4 ohm loads, which is what they are, 4 ohms. I never had to push them over 50 - 80 watts RMS most of the time. Them (they got 15" woofers) including my 15" powered subwoofer, have a lot of bass, but I want more. lol

So you may want to decide carefully on what you want, because no matter want, you may always want more later on.

In my honest opinion, this is like building a computer, you want to get the good stuff. I say the receiver would be one of the most critical links to the system, since you have everything running too and off it. Then next worry about the speakers.

Pretty much, if you choose all the good stuff now, you won't have to worry about it for a long time. We know computers advance like crazy, but as for audio, sure maybe some new surround modes come out, but you can always upgrade that by having an external decoder years later, same for amp power, need more, get a power amp.

Choose all the right components, you''d be pleased with results.

Like last night for example on my system, I had a center speaker that /stood out/.... and wasn't too pleasing because it lacked treble compared to my other speakers. So I hook up one of my older speakers, just a 6" bookshelf, and I had great sound. Currently the system is only as 3.1. Left, Center, Right, Subwoofer. I am still in the middle of changing rooms, and need a sofa table for my rear speakers to set on. But I tell you I loved to crank he volume up real high on Back to the future. lol

Just to give you an idea of my speakers, I run Cerwin-Vega! VE-15 in the front, currently CV SAT-6S (Back from '89, still sounds pure awesome) being used as the Center now, CLS-15S powered subwoofer, and plans for my AT-8s as rear (back from the 80s, but sounds great still.)

Don't be afraid of using older speakers, there are ones out there that sound just as good as new ones today. You'd be really surprised.

Just all up to what you want to go with, and budget of course.

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Manyak

Well when I was talking about subs in the speakers I kind of meant like with an amp like this mounted on the back (maybe not that model but you get the idea). No way I'm putting a 250-500W+ driver on a 100W amp. It would basically just be part of the same enclosures as the speakers for a) convenience and b) positioning.


You know, you're absolutely right. At the end of the day the biggest factor in what everything's gonna sound like is gonna be the source and the amp(s). Because even with the best speakers money can buy, if the sound going to them sounds like crap then they're going to sound like crap too.

I'm gonna try and stretch the budget as much as possible, but $1k is gonna be tough unless I wait.


Good point. I had to think about this for a while, then I came up with this (check out my mspaint skills!):



I think if I wait until the summer I could afford to build it all (not like I can do it in the spring anyway because of the rain). What you think?


And you guys are a really bad influence, you know? All I wanted was a nice amp and set of speakers. Now I'm gonna end up building my living room furniture from scratch haha

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OC'ing Noob

For receivers I personally prefer Onkyo or Yamaha, but Pioneer is great too. I currently this setup for my HTPC (it is pretty old but still damn good!):

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V461
Speakers: Swans D2000HT (Use to have JBL SCS-300 with a Klipsch 10" until the movers put a hole into the sub)

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