Never been convinced by Linux? Here is a challenge for you. - Page 12 - Overclock.net

biatchi · 12-27-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenPC

The two things I REALLY dislike about UNIX (Linux/AIX/SCO/Solaris you name it)

1) Documentation for beginners is non-existent. Trying to find how to do anything is nearly impossible. If it weren't for the UNIX fan boys out there showboating on the forums, UNIX would be nowhere right now.

alt+f2
terminal (or konsole if you are using kde)
man programname

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_GP1200R

Also if you don't want the stupid AV messages, don't install crap AV software (Norton is about the worest ever), and don't download garbage with viruses. You CAN get a virus and malware on Linux too... don't forget that.

hmmmmmmmmm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_GP1200R

Either way, you guys have convinced me to take the challenge (again) since I haven't really played with a Linux desktop in years. (I do run it command line though) I've ordered a brand new 300gig drive to slap in my old Athlon XP 2100+ system with 1 gig of ram. So... give me the "best" distro to play with... thus far it's sounding like Ubuntu is probably up there. In the past I've always gone Red Hat or Fedora and feel 100% comfortable working with Solaris or Fedora with only the command line.

Here is what I want:

1) Good performance on Athlon XP 2100+ with 1 gig of memory

2) Must be "pretty"

3) Must be easy and make sense, I can deal with hard, but I don't want to.

4) Must out of the box support my hardware. I DO NOT want to compile drivers. When I mean support, I want to plug in my USB Canon printer and it start working. I do have a 22 inch wide screen monitor, I saw someone mention that some distros don't deal with that well natively.

5) Must have a good package manager, I don't want to deal with depenencies. I want updates automatic and non-intrusive.

So, what distro gets me closest to the above? I'll d/l and install it once my new HD gets in and let you guys know what I think. Obviously I can't do perf testing between Vista and this new linux box as they will be on different hardware.

http://linuxmint.com/
http://www.pclinuxos.com/
http://www.sam-linux.org/
http://www.faunos.com/

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenPC

Your quoting skills are impressive. Seriously. I love your posts.

If people who love UNIX (in this case, Linux) want world wide adoption, then you will NEED end-user adoption. So far, all I see, day in and day out, is the same old thing: technical elitism. Conversion of common dialect into short-speak and acronyms. End-users will never feel at home with that mentality. You can argue all day long with me on this aspect, but the truth is the truth. UNIX is NOT approachable by the average Joe. And, until it is, UNIX will remain the domain of the sys admins and programmers (and in my case, my x64 folding OS :P)

Believe me, I would love nothing better than to see M$ fold due to their OS price gouging. But, I'm a realist.

It pains me to say but i agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_GP1200R

Tricking myself how? To me the only people that are fooled here are those that think slapping a copy of linux on their computer "makes" them secure. Listen, if you're running a computer, and you're stupid, YOU WILL GET HACKED.

Look at it this way, lets say you are a car theif. You have the ablity to make keys that will allow you to open and drive cars off. You can spend 2 months developing a key that will operate 90% of the cars on the road, or you can spend 2 months creating a key that will only allow you to steal 10% of the cars on the road. Which key do you develop? Does that make the 10% of the cars on the road that you don't waste your time with better designed or safer?

We don't want easy because we can't deal with a challenge, it's that we don't WANT to be bothered when there are better solutions available.

You aren't taking into account the fact that both types of 'car' are designed differently, I mean how many Windows user do you know that don't run in admin mode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lelouch

As much as I would love to try Ubuntu out, the damned thing doesnt work. I cant get it to even install or boot unless I put in noapic and nolapic, and then grub doesnt properly install itself to the boot loader, so I just get a fubar system that needs windows reinstalled; again.

This is unacceptable. Windows does not have these problems. If you want user adoption, an operating system that just works without having to spend an hour on a workaround is needed, from what I can tell Ubuntu is not capable of this, and hasnt been since I have tried it (started somewhere back at Ubuntu 5 something, never gotten it to work).

Not trying to knock Ubuntu too hard, but this is the crap I cant stand. Halfway tempted to again give up on this broken OS and not waste my time.. And the Ubuntu Forums have been less than helpful.

I will admit that Linux support for some hardware is a little thin on the ground but in almost all of these cases Linux simply isn't to blame, It doesn't stop it being annoying but what can you do?

Making absolutley everything work out of the box causes bulk and bloat and nulifies it's advantage (simplicity and lightness ) over Windows imo.

While distros like *buntu, Suse, Fedora etc are great at getting people intersed in and using the penguin the noob friendly-ness comes at a price and that is performance Arch, Gentoo LFS etc > all previously mentioned distros

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoddimusPrime

I will make this fast and easy... I would love to switch to Linux... but, you know what? Third Party software makers don't support Linux all that much. I want to be able to do web design, graphic design, etc. and for that I will need Adobe. Tell me how I can install and run Adobe without a lot of headache then that is one point for you.

Second, music. I like to use iTunes and while there are players such as foobar they are terribly hard to operate and change for me. I like simply downloading a player that does it all in an easy and popular manner.

Lastly, gaming. If I could run good games under Linux then I would def. be considering Linux.

In summation, Linux lacks software and application support for what I need/use.

If you could solve music, gaming, and other software that I use personally and professionally then you have an argument.

Adobe? Itunes is teh suck but meh, *nix alternatives (all far superior imo)
Exaile
Amarok
Rhythmbox
Listen
Banshee

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathris

Windows just works, Vista aside, you're guaranteed any software and hardware will just work, or work after a simple patch. With linux I've found that the only programs that just work are the ones that come with the OS. Pretty much every other program will require you to install some dependency or modify a config file, and almost certainly google it. You seriously can't use linux without an internet connection, because when, not if, a problem arises you need to be one of those people who have read entire books on linux and know the exact command to fix it or you need to google it for one of those forum threads with 100s of other people having the same problem to look for a solution.

Pretty much every single Linux package manager solves dependices for you
I will admit having a everyday Linux box especially for newcomers that isn't connected to net is not the greatest idea, The upside is that you have bang up to date drivers, Progs and a wealth of information at your fingertips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hundred Gunner

That isn't true. It's actually easier in Linux. Not only are there log files that can tell you what went wrong, but the Terminal will show the program's output. It'll report what's going wrong while it's going wrong.

Hell, I had a CD yesterday that wouldn't eject, and the OS even told me exactly which processes I had to kill to get it to come out.

And if you want to force-quit a program in Linux, it closes the FIRST time. Not on its own time.

Exactly!
alt+f2
terminal (konsole if you are using kde)
yourprogram

voilla a log of every single thing the program does

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namrac

Sounds like you've had some bad luck then, because only with one particularly nasty firefox crash in XP has a program not responded to killing the process for me.

And by the way, Firefox has been crashing fairly consistently in Linux for me, it was rare in Windows, but this is like once or twice a day. >.>

Firefox on any os has a tendacy to do funky things and crash in my experience

*Mr.N00bLaR* · 12-27-07

I dunno about some of this... XP is a great OS in my opinion... I have not had an XP installation that crashed on me ever...(unless overclocking or had genuienly bad hardware). Maybe I'm lucky at home? NEver had an XP installation 'goof' at work either. As for customization, there are many programs themes for windows that work well and easily.I'm not a fan of Vista but, being a tech I'm a little biased lol.
Ubutnu's package manager is a great tool though, definately beats 'googling'

You can play games in linux too. YOu have WINE and if you want better support (I guess, never used this solution) cadega {5$/mo I think}

UNIX is not meant to be friendly, its meant to do excalty what it's told.

RoddimusPrime · 12-27-07

Linux is has a great idea going and seems ideal if it were to work... but, that is in an ideal world. Even for those wanting to download and chat with their friends are going to experience problems. So why put up with all the headache?

The Hundred Gunner · 12-27-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoddimusPrime

Perhaps someone can tell me this.....
Can I get iTunes to work properly in Linux?
How well does compiz perform?
And can I get games like Unreal 3 to work nicely?

I don't know about iTunes + Linux, to tell you the truth. I don't even listen to music in Linux, but I have Amarok, which is a highly rated media player program. And iPods should work in Linux, but I've also never tried that, and I'm not up to date about what the deal with newer iPods is (are they really iTunes only?)

What do you mean by "how well does compiz perform?" If you mean "is it good," then yes, it's fantastic. It has, by far, the best special desktop effects I've seen.

Unreal 3 is supposed to have a native Linux port, I believe.

I have a good list of games that I run on Linux right now. Those include: Alien Arena 2007, Doom 3, Nexuiz, Warsow and a few more. I'm not too sure about windows-only games, though. I tried XIII and Resident Evil 4 in wine with no luck. Other people have gotten them working, though, so I've heard. CSS and CS and HL are supposed to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_GP1200R

Also, to anyone who is really looking for legit reasons NOT to run Linux... simply look at this thread:

http://www.overclock.net/linux-unix-...-ubuntu-3.html

IMHO this just isn't an acceptable option, and why Microsoft and Apple continue to make money hand over fist. The Hundred Gunner, this isn't meant as an attack or rag on you, it's just an example of the type of "pain" that Linux users have to put up with and sometimes downplay:

You're not listening, buddy! I've clearly stated a number of times on this very thread *we here on OCN.* That is, advanced computer users. It certainly won't fly for mainstream, which I also have explicitly said Linux is not ready for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoddimusPrime

Linux is has a great idea going and seems ideal if it were to work... but, that is in an ideal world. Even for those wanting to download and chat with their friends are going to experience problems. So why put up with all the headache?

Download what?

Chat is no problem. It's pre-installed with nearly every distro.

RoddimusPrime · 12-27-07

Like I said... does one really want to use a significant amount of time to learn each and every one of these nuances on linux? Sure, use GIMP, but it won't be CS3 of which someone may need. Music formats... well sure if all I buy are CD's, but I like to go to iTunes and just get a song here and there. Also, if I want to customize my music player in Linux it is a real learning process. As per gaming it is a process for each game unless it is Linux native.

Documentation, help, and having to learn command lines are a nice thought, but it is easier to click a button.

Don't kid yourself. If you have run Linux for a while and have learned the ins/outs then it is obviously easier. However, Windows is by far easier to plug and play for those who don't have the time to fiddle around. We live in a world where time is money and time isn't something I can get back after I use it.

Thus I need something that can get the job done, but will be easy and reliable and an easy learning curve. To top it applications and software support are no where near what they are on Windows or even Mac.

Lastly, how many businesses or entertainment giants use Linux for more than servers? I don't see Frontrow, Maya, or Adobe on Linux. Perhaps if there were a big reason to support Linux for more than the fact that it is free and open to extreme customization.

For Linux to gain any real ground or support from 3rd party developers then Linux has to gain some serious ground among the common user.

biatchi · 12-27-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoddimusPrime

Like I said... does one really want to use a significant amount of time to learn each and every one of these nuances on linux? Sure, use GIMP, but it won't be CS3 of which someone may need. Music formats... well sure if all I buy are CD's, but I like to go to iTunes and just get a song here and there. Also, if I want to customize my music player in Linux it is a real learning process. As per gaming it is a process for each game unless it is Linux native.

Documentation, help, and having to learn command lines are a nice thought, but it is easier to click a button.

Don't kid yourself. If you have run Linux for a while and have learned the ins/outs then it is obviously easier. However, Windows is by far easier to plug and play for those who don't have the time to fiddle around. We live in a world where time is money and time isn't something I can get back after I use it.

Thus I need something that can get the job done, but will be easy and reliable and an easy learning curve. To top it applications and software support are no where near what they are on Windows or even Mac.

Lastly, how many businesses or entertainment giants use Linux for more than servers? I don't see Frontrow, Maya, or Adobe on Linux. Perhaps if there were a big reason to support Linux for more than the fact that it is free and open to extreme customization.

For Linux to gain any real ground or support from 3rd party developers then Linux has to gain some serious ground among the common user.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that setting up music players on Linux is a hard task?

RoddimusPrime · 12-27-07

In the end what I am trying to say is that while Linux is good it doesn't have the support needed yet to really convince the mainstream and it also doesn't have the ease of use when it comes to certain programs, hardware, etc. Try going wireless or one of many other instances.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for more than nothing else to run Linux and nothing else. It would be sweet to sit down and have great speed and native support on my design programs, buy third party software without hesitation, or pick up whatever game I want while I am out at the store. I am a social gamer and as such I would love to just do gaming online as well with healthy servers and such.

I shouldn't argue so much as I have a PS3 and a Xbox 360 so I can do gaming there, but you can't play things like Supreme Commander on Linux so easily and not have slow downs.

However, Linux has come a long way.

RoddimusPrime · 12-27-07

You are picking one point out.... I have tried Foobar for instance.... perhaps it is a bad player of choice, but without plenty of research how would I know that? I tried customizing the background and adding a visualizer and such, but it wasn't nearly as easy as iTunes. Not to mention iTunes, WMP, and others automatically import Album art from a database. You can tell me Linux can do it to, but that isn't the point. I am sure in some workaround fashion it can, but I don't want to waste my time doing it. I want to download and have it working within 5 minutes and everything is already done and hooked up to album art, music I can purchase, easy access, etc.

By the way, I am sorry to have assumed the opposing side as I am trying not to, but this thread was intended not to cause an argument. I am glad you like Linux, but for ease of use and compatibility it is not for me. My time is very valuable and I am happy it is easy for you, but if it were so easy and better then I think more people would be using it and more major developers would be supporting it. Period.

biatchi · 12-27-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoddimusPrime

You are picking one point out.... I have tried Foobar for instance.... perhaps it is a bad player of choice, but without plenty of research how would I know that? I tried customizing the background and adding a visualizer and such, but it wasn't nearly as easy as iTunes. Not to mention iTunes, WMP, and others automatically import Album art from a database. You can tell me Linux can do it to, but that isn't the point. I am sure in some workaround fashion it can, but I don't want to waste my time doing it. I want to download and have it working within 5 minutes and everything is already done and hooked up to album art, music I can purchase, easy access, etc.

By the way, I am sorry to have assumed the opposing side as I am trying not to, but this thread was intended not to cause an argument. I am glad you like Linux, but for ease of use and compatibility it is not for me. My time is very valuable and I am happy it is easy for you, but if it were so easy and better then I think more people would be using it and more major developers would be supporting it. Period.

Exaile and amarok do it out of the box and the others i listed above should do it but i can't remember.

It just seems like you just can't be bothered to do any research at all. 1 simple search of google or even here would tell you some good linux players. As Itunes doesn't ship with Linux you have do some sort of research to discover it i presume, Why not give Linux the same treatment? It just seems a little unfair.

RoddimusPrime · 12-28-07

Again, it is one example. If that were all the research I need to do then awesome. However, I have to research how to install software I use both everyday and every now and then. Let me make a few more examples:

1. I need to see if Linux will run Supreme Commander and play online as well. I do like good strategy games. For that matter, throw in chess.
2. Will Linux run Unreal 3 and I mean officially/natively.
3. Will Linux run Adobe CS2 without a big performance hit?
4. Will Linux take advantage of my high end system?
5. Do those players have a great interface you mentioned?
6. Will the Language programs I have from Instant Immersion run in Linux?
7. What about my Macromedia Studio 8 for Web Design? Can I also publish my pages without knowing additional code, etc?
8. And oh yeah, what about Crysis? Sorry to say it, but I want to play those nifty new games and have the online support to boot.

I will stop there, but that is just a few examples that I can easily list off the top of my head. Again, I am not trying to argue, but don't assume I don't mind doing research, but it would really begin to feel like a drag every time I needed to add/change code to just pop a disc in and run a program. Simply put, I don't know how to do all that stuff you do, but it would be much easier if programs ran with little complication and the support was there for online gaming, etc.

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Never been convinced by Linux? Here is a challenge for you.