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[TeN] ARM thinks it can get AMD to drop x86 - Page 8

post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
What would be interesting today is the Chinese Loongson which will suppose to emulate x86. (Not sure if legal.)
I'm not sure if Chinese and legal can ever be used in the same context!
    
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post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
You have to remember that modern x86 CPUs don't really have much x86 architecture in them. They have a tiny, tiny, fraction devoted to translating x86 instructions into what is actually executed.

Plenty of supposedly superior architectures have come and gone because they are not faster per dollar, nor per watt, than modern x86 implimentations.

Even if ARM is "better" that is no guarantee that ARM can design a chip that could compete with Intel or AMDs x86 designs in the desktop space, even if comparability is not a concern.

That said, I would be quite interested in seeing what ARM could do if scaled up to the 10-100w power envelope.
This is pretty much correct as far as I know, ever since the AMD K5 we've had CPUs just translate to RISC style instructions rather than compute x86 stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Moving to ARM is the best thing that could possibly happen to the industry. Intel owns x86, and the only reason they haven't bullied AMD out of the picture is because AMD owns some critical patents (like x86_64) and for anti-trust reasons.

A major shift to ARM would allow manufacturers like nVidia and Qualcomm to enter the high performance CPU market, and that can only be a good thing, since it means more competition, more innovation, and lower prices.
That all depends on how well ARM scales up to 100w, if it scales like crap then x86 will be faster, not that I would mind not having ARM instead of x86.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzalias View Post
Or just use a hard-wired legacy chip.
AMD Fusion and Intels Atom (But a faster version, of course) would be perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephasteus View Post
Because it worked so well for Intel.

http://www.eejournal.com/archives/ar...printView=true
IA64 had literally no applications, ARM has a lot and some OS', IA64 was practically guaranteed to fail whereas ARM is already big.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr0sty View Post
you didnt respond to me on how arm could acquire amd ....


how much money is arm worth??

and how much money is amd worth??
There's not much reason for ARM to buy AMD though, if anything, ARM would try to buy GlobalFoundries so they can make their own chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by assaulth3ro911 View Post
Hmm... maybe for low profile, in the Bobcat, homeserver, and HTPC range, but anything higher as of now, I don't know if ARM can compete.
For now, they couldn't, but if they build chips that scale up and scale up well, they could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erniv2 View Post
Wont happen the Next 20 Years.

Software thats compiled for x86 100% , x64 5%, ARM 0% even if there is a ARM Windows it will run nothing.

Anybody remember Crusoe they talked the **** out of it yeaaa we´ll do RISC/VLIW emulating x86 and it was just fail.

As long the Software share is not atlast 50% Compiled for it pepole would just skip it. Same with x64 nowdays hardly any 64 bit apps around, and EMT64 is in the CPU´s for atlast 6 Years.
1) Windows 8 will have an ARM version.
2) x86 is grossly inefficient, but with the advent of Fusion chips and the Atom, who's to say that 10w of that power envelope can't go to having hardware x86 on chip for compatibility?
3) They may have been here, but the only time a decent x64 OS came out was 2 or 3 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Examples please....
Ask anyone who's programmed assembly code for the 8086, 286, 386, etc, the 8086 was popular for one single reason.

It was the cheapest chip, it was easily the worst of the lot (Slowest, worst instruction set, etc) but cause of the 8088 only needing 8bit support chips, it was by far the cheapest.
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post #73 of 85
Let's face it: x86 is here to stay. There is absolutely no reason for it to go away for a simple reason: backwards compatibility. Does anybody imagine what it is for an ARM chip to include x86 compatibility ?

oOr those who say that x86 is inefficient, imagine the pirouettes the ARM architecture would have to perform in order to execute x86 at a decent speed.

Imagine all the applications and games. Imagine porting the whole x86 and SSE's into the ARM architecture. (and previously imagine Intel letting anyone do that in the first place, of course). How power efficient would that be ?

As some have rightfully pointed out, since the Pentium Pro in 1995 Intel addressed the CISC vs. RISC problem. Current x86 chips are RISC chips, they have a decoder that uses less and less space as manufacturing technology advances.

What I think ARM is doing is trying to stay alive. Their best defense is attacking.

Why ?

Let's see: there was a time when x86 was power efficient: a Pentium 3 at 1Ghz had a pretty good 26w TDP. Then came the Pentium 4 and out went power efficiency. AMD was good though.

Then came the Conroe: the first Core 2 Duos had a 22w idle power usage. A revision after and it was down to 12w, a second revision after and it was down to 8w. The 45nm ones brought that down to 4w.

Then came the Atom at 45nm, which, in it's nettop version used those 4w at MAX load (the Netbook one used 2w for the Z5xx at 1.6Ghz or 2.4w for the popular 1.6 Ghz N270, and the Z500 at 800Mhz had a 0.65w TDP).

Intel has proved that x86 can be power efficient, they just needed the market to be eco-friendly and demand it.

And now Intel will bring Atom to 32nm, and then to 22nm and then 14nm.

There will be a time when an Intel powered phone will have the battery last 5 days on a charge and an ARM powered phone will have the battery last 6 days.

And that is what is worrying ARM. By then it won't make a difference. The consumer couldn't care less past a certain threshold. People are generally upset if a phone can't make it past the day of intensive usage without recharging, and equally upset if they eventually do, but are left stranded on the middle of the next day. When you finally get to a 5+ day of intensive usage - and mind you, there is only so much the CPU is responsible for - the rest is used by the screen and the audio, and GPS, and whatever, then Intel will be on par, as far as the consumer is concerned.

Will ARM still be able to maintain the lead in power efficiency by then? Probably. But in practice it won't matter. The difference will be too minimal compared to the vast array of x86 software you will have at your disposal. And let's not forget that ARM itself will have to be adding layers of improvements (unless they want to break backwards compatibility), just like Intel has done over the years with x86, to stay competitive, so in the end you could also argue that ARM is no longer sleek.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Han View Post
it wont happen mainly because 22nm and 14nm fab (coming Q4 this year) will be able to directly compete against ARM. Remember x86 is faster than ARM on almost everything, the only drawback is its high power consumption (mainly due to current leakage and power loss during switching)

Intel apparently spend over $10 billion on R&D to fix power leakage issues on tiny transistor gate length.

I was told recently they got transistor gate to 4 atoms thick, and it was almost impossible to mitigate current leakage on that scale due to quantum mechanical effects with conventional methods. So the $10 billion was suppose to solve that problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justarealguy View Post
...And the average user doesn't care. Newsflash: People barely tap the computing power their computers have. If ARM can produce some very power efficient chips for the desktop user, it's an extremely large energy footprint that can be mitigated.

x86 is grossly inefficient. I'll stick with it because I'm a power user, but not many need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL_Wut_Axel View Post
Yeah, but we're on OCN. RISC is never gonna reach anywhere near the level of performance of an X86 processor. It's one thing to want to do this for AMD's budget CPUs; it's one entirely different to want to do it for the high-end as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z Overlord View Post
Would ARM on a Windows desktop totally break compatibility with hundreds of programs, most importantly, old games ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
You have to remember that modern x86 CPUs don't really have much x86 architecture in them. They have a tiny, tiny, fraction devoted to translating x86 instructions into what is actually executed.

Plenty of supposedly superior architectures have come and gone because they are not faster per dollar, nor per watt, than modern x86 implimentations.

Even if ARM is "better" that is no guarantee that ARM can design a chip that could compete with Intel or AMDs x86 designs in the desktop space, even if comparability is not a concern.

That said, I would be quite interested in seeing what ARM could do if scaled up to the 10-100w power envelope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Modern x86 cores are actually RISC processors. They literally just translate a single CISC instruction into a series of atomic RISC instructions that are really no different than ARM.



Moving to ARM is the best thing that could possibly happen to the industry. Intel owns x86, and the only reason they haven't bullied AMD out of the picture is because AMD owns some critical patents (like x86_64) and for anti-trust reasons.

A major shift to ARM would allow manufacturers like nVidia and Qualcomm to enter the high performance CPU market, and that can only be a good thing, since it means more competition, more innovation, and lower prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMC View Post
Brutuz, Blameless and nathris hit the points nicely.

ARM will enter the desktop market. It is just a matter of when. OS's like MAC OS and Windows need to on a kernel level support ARM and its small architecture. This has been argued many many times before.

Intel has a patent with x86. Everything has been developed around it. In order to allow future architectures to support older solutions, you need to have support for x86.

A work around for certain mathematical hardware accelerations for older tech is to do it in software on ARM as a means of continued support.

Edited by tpi2007 - 4/29/11 at 7:33pm
 
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post #74 of 85
Quote:
For example, it has managed to convince Microsoft to support its full Windows operating system running on ARM processors.
That's pretty stupid logic, that offers Microsoft more sales. How would dropping x86 benfit AMD to that extent?
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post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Intel already is invested in the mobile/tablet/portable market with Atom. Dropping Atom to develop an ARM processor would signal defeat and I'm not sure Intel would do that. The Atom line is suppose to cover up to nettop level performance.

AMD on the other hand does not have anything lower than netbook performance. Brazos was never designed for mobile or tablets. Therefore, AMD could develop ARM processors without canabalizing their market. AMD does have the CPU+GPU+Chipset experience needed for high-performance ARM.
that's a strong point and i didn't think of it that way - i thought they meant drop x86 completely - not as a complement to x86.

and AMD doing so would hedge on Qualcomm, nvidia, and also samsung/apple...

interesting. i doubt they'd drop x86 completely though
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post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post
I did an engineering project with ARM because i was the most inteligent in my school therefor i was selected muhahaha! I did not like them. I asked them, do you have anything to do with AMD because they had both logo's on their shirts. hhmmmm.
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post #77 of 85
im just sayin, what could happen if AMD were to buy ARM (lol) and somehow incorporate them into chipset/ondie additives i dunno, real graphics cores on chip things like that?
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post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Let's face it: x86 is here to stay. There is absolutely no reason for it to go away for a simple reason: backwards compatibility. Does anybody imagine what it is for an ARM chip to include x86 compatibility ?

oOr those who say that x86 is inefficient, imagine the pirouettes the ARM architecture would have to perform in order to execute x86 at a decent speed.
You do realize that with chips as fast as the Fusion in a tiny power envelope, having native x86 hardware purely for emulation kinda stuff would be not that difficult.
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post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
You do realize that with chips as fast as the Fusion in a tiny power envelope, having native x86 hardware purely for emulation kinda stuff would be not that difficult.
Emulation is slow. Can you imagine it running x86 at a decent speed and with a decent thermal envelope and an affordable die size ? That would take years to accomplish and you'd have to stop writing x86 code right now.

Anyway, in another thread, it was made evident: AMD is not going to license ARM technology. Here: http://www.overclock.net/hardware-ne...m-license.html
 
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post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post
im just sayin, what could happen if AMD were to buy ARM (lol) and somehow incorporate them into chipset/ondie additives i dunno, real graphics cores on chip things like that?
ARM Holdings has a current market cap of 14.1 billion dollars. AMD's market cap is currently 6.2 billion dollars. How on Earth are you imagining AMD coming up with the money to swallow ARMH?
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