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post #81 of 92
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Originally Posted by venom55520 View Post
essentially yes. People are an exploitable resource to companies however, i have a strict "if you're dumb enough to fall for it, then you deserve to be ripped off" mentality.
I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but your opinions don't sound very well thought through.

That or you really do have little to no compassion for others or desire for parity. In which case the argument is almost surely hitting the firewall in both directions.
Edited by _02 - 5/5/11 at 9:13am
    
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post #82 of 92
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Originally Posted by Farfnarkle View Post
So if I manage to trick you into giving me all of your money you're ok with that? I highly doubt that. Also if you truly believe humans are an exploitable resource, you should see a therapist.
does apple trick people into giving away all their money? how about facebook? again, you take my quotes and you stretch it into comprehensible extremes. notice i said "BUY" not "GIVE" they BOUGHT an overpriced phone or desktop with their money because they fell into the hype. i have a tip for you: that's called good marketing. and honestly, if you really did fool me into giving you all the money i've got, i'd probably deserve that.

make no mistake, EVERY company making a profit views people as an exploitable resource.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _02 View Post
I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but your opinions don't sound very well thought through.

That or you really do have little to no compassion for others or desire for parity. In which case the argument is almost surely hitting the firewall in both directions.

it's not that i have no compassion for others, it's just that i feel you're demonizing people who are just doing their jobs.

i'd be very interested in how you incorporate ethics into a multi-billion dollar company and manage to make a profit. let alone, start a multi-billion dollar company on your own.
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post #83 of 92
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Originally Posted by venom55520 View Post
does apple trick people into giving away all their money? how about facebook? again, you take my quotes and you stretch it into comprehensible extremes. notice i said "BUY" not "GIVE" they BOUGHT an overpriced phone or desktop with their money because they fell into the hype. i have a tip for you: that's called good marketing. and honestly, if you really did fool me into giving you all the money i've got, i'd probably deserve that.
So you're saying if someone lies to you, and you believe them, the person doing the lying is not at fault? You're just repeatedly saying it's ok to deceive people, and I find it hard to believe you have NEVER been deceived and felt angry about it. But fine, maybe you're the one human being in the world who doesn't mind being deceived, I can accept that.




Quote:
make no mistake, EVERY company making a profit views people as an exploitable resource.
Although I doubt I can find an example with just Google, I'm going to at least try. But you're probably right. I mean, how can someone who isn't prepared to lie, cheat, and steal possibly compete with one who is? It's not that these companies CAN'T exist, it's that they are prevented or destroyed by the greedy companies already in place. (I hope you don't really need examples of big companies destroying competition).

Examples I found:
-Craigslist, do a bit of reasearch on their CEO http://www.craigslist.org/about/jim_buckmaster. They have no advertising, no branding, and an unattractive interface. He makes a profit, and given his views I doubt he views people as exploitable. He could EASILY make more money if he wanted to, be hes not as greedy as some of those I've "demonized" so he doesn't.
Taken from here
Quote:
Jim Buckmaster says the key to their success is an anti-commercial value system based on three “ironies”: “the ironies of unbranding, demonetizing, and noncompeting.” Instead of going for the quick profit like other startups, Craigslist survived the dot-com boom and bust by providing a service as simply and straightforwardly as possible. Buckmaster says, “We’re definitely oddballs in the Internet industry, and we always have been. Lots of people made fun of us, especially at the height of the dot-com boom. Most of those people are out of business now.”
-Valve anyone? They CONSTANTLY have deals, and have given away their products for free. They may not be perfect, but they do a lot of nice things for their customers they don't have to.


Quote:
it's not that i have no compassion for others, it's just that i feel you're demonizing people who are just doing their jobs.
Just because someone is "doing their job" doesn't mean they can't be doing something wrong, that's what I keep trying to show you with my examples. Also you keep thinking I don't want companies to make a profit. I'm just saying do they really need those multi-billion dollar profits? Why not scale it back to just multi-million? (I'll give you a hint, it's a word that starts with g and ends in reed)


Quote:
i'd be very interested in how you incorporate ethics into a multi-billion dollar company and manage to make a profit. let alone, start a multi-billion dollar company on your own.
Let me try and clear up my view: I believe companies SHOULD profit, if you perform a service, you should stand to gain something from that. However, does a teller at a bank deserve a $100,000 dollar salary? No, so why does someone who created a reasonably simply website deserve BILLIONS? Your reason for why he deserves that money is not "Because hes providing a valuable service to others" it's "Because hes smart enough to trick stupid people". This creates a climate where a companies best option is to deceive and scam its customers. Wow, that sounds like a wonderful world to live in, how do I move there?

I'll give you another example (and I'll tone it down from Nazis a bit):
A child is give $5 for lunch. That child is then choosing his lunch and has 2 options, my pizza and your pizza. My pizza tastes better, uses healthier ingredients, but for the sake of argument lets say it smells like regular old pizza. I tell the kid "Don't worry, it tastes better than it smells! and it's healthy too!" Your pizza uses unhealthy ingredients, lower quality ingredients, but happens to smell nice. You tell the kid "Hey kid, smell my pizza isn't it amazing?" and he buys your pizza. He then takes one bite and throws it out because its disgusting. But who cares? The kid didn't know any better so he deserves what he got right?

Now I'll go on to show you how I believe the scenario SHOULD go:
You get better ingredients (instead of trying to cut costs with bad ingredients). Now, the kid can choose whatever pizza he wants, and you don't have to mislead him to market your product! You can tell him the truth, that your pizza is healthy, tastes good, and even smells better!

Oh no, I just realized the flaw in my example! You only made half of the profit you did before! Obviously you're now a worse businessman! Guess it really IS better to trick the kid into buying the worse pizza... (Sarcasm here btw)

now just go back and replace "pizza" with the product of your choice and the "kid" with people. Kids don't know that healthy is good, and smell doesn't dictate taste (at least not for the sake of argument here). So why should stupid people have to be able to outsmart AN ENTIRE CORPORATION to be able to make a good decision on what they buy?
Edited by Farfnarkle - 5/5/11 at 2:23pm
post #84 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfnarkle View Post
So you're saying if someone lies to you, and you believe them, the person doing the lying is not at fault? You're just repeatedly saying it's ok to deceive people, and I find it hard to believe you have NEVER been deceived and felt angry about it. But fine, maybe you're the one human being in the world who doesn't mind being deceived, I can accept that.


Although I doubt I can find an example with just Google, I'm going to at least try. But you're probably right. I mean, how can someone who isn't prepared to lie, cheat, and steal possibly compete with one who is? It's not that these companies CAN'T exist, it's that they are prevented or destroyed by the greedy companies already in place. (I hope you don't really need examples of big companies destroying competition).



Just because someone is "doing their job" doesn't mean they can't be doing something wrong, that's what I keep trying to show you with my examples. Also you keep thinking I don't want companies to make a profit. I'm just saying do they really need those multi-billion dollar profits? Why not scale it back to just multi-million? (I'll give you a hint, it's a word that starts with g and ends in reed)




Let me try and clear up my view: I believe companies SHOULD profit, if you perform a service, you should stand to gain something from that. However, does a teller at a bank deserve a $100,000 dollar salary? No, so why does someone who created a reasonably simply website deserve BILLIONS? Your reason for why he deserves that money is not "Because hes providing a valuable service to others" it's "Because hes smart enough to trick stupid people". This creates a climate where a companies best option is to deceive and scam its customers. Wow, that sounds like a wonderful world to live in, how do I move there?

I'll give you another example (and I'll tone it down from Nazis a bit):
A child is give $5 for lunch. That child is then choosing his lunch and has 2 options, my pizza and your pizza. My pizza tastes better, uses healthier ingredients, but for the sake of argument lets say it smells like regular old pizza. I tell the kid "Don't worry, it tastes better than it smells! and it's healthy too!" Your pizza uses unhealthy ingredients, lower quality ingredients, but happens to smell nice. You tell the kid "Hey kid, smell my pizza isn't it amazing?" and he buys your pizza. He then takes one bite and throws it out because its disgusting. But who cares? The kid didn't know any better so he deserves what he got right?

Now I'll go on to show you how I believe the scenario SHOULD go:
You get better ingredients (instead of trying to cut costs with bad ingredients). Now, the kid can choose whatever pizza he wants, and you don't have to mislead him to market your product! You can tell him the truth, that your pizza is healthy, tastes good, and even smells better!



Oh no, I just realized the flaw in my example! You only made half of the profit you did before! Obviously you're now a worse businessman! Guess it really IS better to trick the kid into buying the worse pizza... (Sarcasm here btw)

now just go back and replace "pizza" with the product of your choice and the "kid" with people. Kids don't know that healthy is good, and smell doesn't dictate taste (at least not for the sake of argument here). So why should stupid people have to be able to outsmart AN ENTIRE CORPORATION to be able to make a good decision on what they buy?
ok but if someone is getting all this extra generated profit he should just be like "man, i'm getting too much money for the company, gotta stop advertising my product"?

both companies did not like about their products. the original topic of this thread was facebook taking down your account because of copyrights.

apple doesn't lie. they show the contents of their product and if people don't do their research and choose to buy it, then good for apple. do you understand? it's not like they go up to individuals and start lying. they advertise their product, people get interested, don't do their research, and buy the stuff on a whim. why is that a problem? it's their fault. and clearly, people are enjoying their apple products and facebook because if they didn't then apple wouldn't nearly be as popular as it is today. everyone i know who has a macbook, ipad, or iphone loves it. it's simple and caters to the majority of the demographic. so what if they overpayed, if you were selling something and you knew you could sell it for more, would you? it's the basics of economy, it's called upward pressure.
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post #85 of 92
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Originally Posted by venom55520 View Post
ok but if someone is getting all this extra generated profit he should just be like "man, i'm getting too much money for the company, gotta stop advertising my product"?
I guess my earlier examples still aren't good enough?
-Spend more of that profit on making your product better (IE giving back to the consumer)
-Lower prices
-Donate to charity
-Increase employee wages
-Spend the money on the services that surround your product (IE Apple making their tech support better, or car companies funding drivers ed courses)

Also let me throw another question at you: Can too much money be a bad thing? Many things are good, but bad in excess. A slice of pizza is good, two slices could be viewed as better, but what happens if you eat the whole pie? The only difference is, we don't have a biological response to tell us we have too much money. (that pizza example really made me hungry >.<)

Quote:
both companies did not like about their products.
You don't have to lie to manipulate. In my example you knew the kid would think that better smelling means better tasting (And while their may be some actual scientific proof of that, lets keep this hyopthetical and pretend it isn't true and that it is just a common misconception) that's why you chose to tell him that instead of highlighting another selling point of your product. Answer this question: do you believe it is ok take advantage of a child like the way I described in my example? If no, why not?

Quote:
the original topic of this thread was facebook taking down your account because of copyrights.\\
Obviously we are off topic, but why did you bring this up?

Quote:
apple doesn't lie.
Really? Apple as a corporation has NEVER told a lie? LOL come ON man, even Ghandi must have lied in his life at some point. But I see what you're saying, they aren't doing it constantly. But let me ask you, is a lie of omission still a lie? Also I used three words: Lie, cheat and manipulate. Just because they don't lie doesn't mean they don't lie or manipulate. 2/3 is still bad.

Quote:
they show the contents of their product and if people don't do their research and choose to buy it, then good for apple. do you understand? it's not like they go up to individuals and start lying. they advertise their product, people get interested, don't do their research, and buy the stuff on a whim. why is that a problem? it's their fault.
No they don't go up to people and lie to them, they just try to make it seem like their product is "cool" and "trendy" (Mac vs pc commercials, the mac is a young guy, the pc is some stuffy guy in a suit). That might not be a direct lie, but they make it seem like all the mac users are cool young guys, while PC users are stuffy businessmen. Do you honestly believe this has no effect on people? And if they "show the contents of their product" then answer me this: What motherboard does thier 27 inch iMac use? I want a link from their website, and not as a response to someone asking a question on their forum. The motherboard is a pretty damn important piece of a computer, and I think it's fair that I want to know what kind it is.

Also, why should I have to do my research to determine whether a product is good or bad? Why doesn't the company just tell me exactly how good it is? If it's a good product, being honest won't change much. If it's a bad one, they go out of business like they deserve to!

Quote:
and clearly, people are enjoying their apple products and facebook because if they didn't then apple wouldn't nearly be as popular as it is today. everyone i know who has a macbook, ipad, or iphone loves it. it's simple and caters to the majority of the demographic.
Firstly, just because you're friends like them, doesn't mean everyone does.

Secondly, its not really the quality that I think is bad (although I do, but thats another argument altogether), its the amount they charge for that bad quality (If Apple dropped their prices by 50% I sure as hell wouldn't criticize them as much. Also thats a hypothetical number meant to show a point, I know how quickly they would die at that price). Apple deliberately puts high quality monitors on their products to hide the fact that (most) of their components are either low quality, outdated, or both. People see these shiney cases and screens and think "DAMN this computer is GOOD!". Thirdly, you're not really showing me how they are not acting greedily, you're just proving that their greed is successful. Duh, no one is saying being greedy cant make you rich .

Quote:
so what if they overpayed,
Oh, you got to the greed aspect. Finally.

Quote:
if you were selling something and you knew you could sell it for more, would you? it's the basics of economy, it's called upward pressure.
I already admitted I would, but were not talking about what we WOULD do, its what we SHOULD do. I would also steal $100,000 from my local bank if I could get away with it(I'm 100% serious about that too). Does that make it right?

I'm sorry but I feel it's wrong to deliberately mislead someone in ALMOST every circumstance (The age old "would you steal bread to feed a starving family" is an example of the rare occasion when it would be ok to do something "unethical"). But if you're already rich, why do you feel the need to be more rich? (I'll give you another hint, rhymes with speed)
post #86 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfnarkle View Post
I guess my earlier examples still aren't good enough?
-Spend more of that profit on making your product better (IE giving back to the consumer)
-Lower prices
-Donate to charity
-Increase employee wages
-Spend the money on the services that surround your product (IE Apple making their tech support better, or car companies funding drivers ed courses)
zuckerberg donated money to charity, doesn't charge at all, and is constantly improving facebook. i don't know about employee wages, but everybody working on facebook is certainly happy (only 500 software engineers.)

apple constantly sends out updated versions of their hardware. (some may say too much)

granted, their employees aren't paid enough, but that's their decision.

let me ask you something, does the CEO of intel or AMD go through this much scrutiny? how about asus? how about gigabyte? no? ok, how about valve?

why do you feel so entitled to this price drop and donations just because someone got successful? and why do you view them as the devil? why would a company POSSIBLY lower their prices when people buy just as much at a higher price? are you freaking kidding me?
Quote:
Also let me throw another question at you: Can too much money be a bad thing? Many things are good, but bad in excess. A slice of pizza is good, two slices could be viewed as better, but what happens if you eat the whole pie? The only difference is, we don't have a biological response to tell us we have too much money. (that pizza example really made me hungry >.<)
this is a negligible analogy and one that makes no sense. if a company could make more money with virtually 0 risk, then they should. it just makes sense. you'll get laughed right out of a meeting if you suggest that "hey guys, you're making too much, maybe you should slow down a bit and cut down on your profit because it's 'nice'"
Quote:
You don't have to lie to manipulate. In my example you knew the kid would think that better smelling means better tasting (And while their may be some actual scientific proof of that, lets keep this hyopthetical and pretend it isn't true and that it is just a common misconception) that's why you chose to tell him that instead of highlighting another selling point of your product. Answer this question: do you believe it is ok take advantage of a child like the way I described in my example? If no, why not?
welly yeah, if you're selling something you usually try to point out the benefits. it would be the kid's fault for not researching if the food tasted bad and only listened to the person trying to make a profit off of him.

Quote:
Really? Apple as a corporation has NEVER told a lie? LOL come ON man, even Ghandi must have lied in his life at some point. But I see what you're saying, they aren't doing it constantly. But let me ask you, is a lie of omission still a lie? Also I used three words: Lie, cheat and manipulate. Just because they don't lie doesn't mean they don't lie or manipulate. 2/3 is still bad.
well, if they told so many lies, then name a few.
the only ones i could remember were the tracking software and numerous ones about when their next upgrade to an iphone is.

Quote:
No they don't go up to people and lie to them, they just try to make it seem like their product is "cool" and "trendy" (Mac vs pc commercials, the mac is a young guy, the pc is some stuffy guy in a suit). That might not be a direct lie, but they make it seem like all the mac users are cool young guys, while PC users are stuffy businessmen. Do you honestly believe this has no effect on people? And if they "show the contents of their product" then answer me this: What motherboard does thier 27 inch iMac use? I want a link from their website, and not as a response to someone asking a question on their forum. The motherboard is a pretty damn important piece of a computer, and I think it's fair that I want to know what kind it is.
do you know what processor it has? check.
ram? check
hard drive? check
video processor? check

duhh, let's see, to the average consumer, they could care less about a motherboard. if you're not overclocking, so long as a mobo works, it's fine.
plus most of their stuff is OEM foxconn.

and you have a problem with this why? they try to cater to the trendy and cool crowd. that's called advertising. how about microsoft? they do the same. asus caters to the tech geeks. if you're not using an asus tab, then you're probably some "dumb trendy guy who uses an ipad"

again, it's called marketing. every single ad in the history of ads chooses a demographic to cater to.
Quote:
Also, why should I have to do my research to determine whether a product is good or bad? Why doesn't the company just tell me exactly how good it is? If it's a good product, being honest won't change much. If it's a bad one, they go out of business like they deserve to!
hmm, if someone wanted to sell your product and he showed you an ad saying "buy our product, we overprice it, and you could get a much more powerful one for the same price" would you be like "yeah that's a good plan"
not saying that there are no benefits to apple products, because there is (logic, final cut pro)
Quote:
Firstly, just because you're friends like them, doesn't mean everyone does.
ok, but they bought it without doing their research, that's their fault.

Quote:
Secondly, its not really the quality that I think is bad (although I do, but thats another argument altogether), its the amount they charge for that bad quality (If Apple dropped their prices by 50% I sure as hell wouldn't criticize them as much. Also thats a hypothetical number meant to show a point, I know how quickly they would die at that price). Apple deliberately puts high quality monitors on their products to hide the fact that (most) of their components are either low quality, outdated, or both. People see these shiney cases and screens and think "DAMN this computer is GOOD!". Thirdly, you're not really showing me how they are not acting greedily, you're just proving that their greed is successful. Duh, no one is saying being greedy cant make you rich .
every single apple product i've used has amazing build quality, if that's what you're talking about.
also, yeah, let them lose HALF their profit, so they can be "fair" to their consumers. i just don't get your logic. you're telling me that they should not try to market their product to the best of their ability and should focus more on stuff that the average consumer would barely notice, to appease the tech crowd. jesus, you'd run a company straight into the ground.

Quote:
Oh, you got to the greed aspect. Finally.



I already admitted I would, but were not talking about what we WOULD do, its what we SHOULD do. I would also steal $100,000 from my local bank if I could get away with it(I'm 100% serious about that too). Does that make it right?

I'm sorry but I feel it's wrong to deliberately mislead someone in ALMOST every circumstance (The age old "would you steal bread to feed a starving family" is an example of the rare occasion when it would be ok to do something "unethical"). But if you're already rich, why do you feel the need to be more rich? (I'll give you another hint, rhymes with speed)
because there might be a time where you would need the money. if they could make more money, then they will. that's called capitalism. apple doesn't steal anything by the way, and the fact that you compare their excellent advertising to extreme acts against the law is almost comical.
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post #87 of 92
Well to be honest I don't really see this going anywhere because apparently all you think a company should be worried about is it's profit. I apologize for arguing with you over my view that a company should actually care about it's customers.

Edit: I'm also not just out to get Apple and Facebook, I disagree with the practices of almost every country, it's just easier to find examples for Apple and Facebook for the sake of argument. My two favorite companies have always been Valve and Google, but I still disagree with many of the things both companies do. To be honest, it's probably more accurate to just say I disagree with the idea of a company in general (At least a company in today's Economy & Political system)
Edited by Farfnarkle - 5/6/11 at 10:52am
post #88 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfnarkle View Post
it's probably more accurate to just say I disagree with the idea of a company in general (At least a company in today's Economy & Political system)
That is a position I find myself in, and the general rebuff is "well that's how business is." Many people accept that it is ok for a company to exist outside of moral standards because morals are opinionated, and because people have this idea that a company without morals is perfectly fine because that is it's stated purpose - to make money. Even when they can easily find moral implications of things with stated purposes other than morality.

It implicates a lot more than business, and involves subjective arguments that I've never been able to wrap my head around enough to not feel like I'm just trumpeting my own opinions.

One thing I can lean on is that you can directly view the negative impact that this mentality has on society, even if it is difficult to impress on people that don't agree. I can only assume the issue is divided by morals and that the two sides of the argument are too polar to make much headway about the basic issue.

Or I just haven't thought about it enough yet.
Edited by _02 - 5/6/11 at 11:14am
    
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post #89 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02 View Post
That is a position I find myself in, and the general rebuff is "well that's how business is." Many people accept that it is ok for a company to exist outside of moral standards because morals are opinionated, and because people have this idea that a company without morals is perfectly fine because that is it's stated purpose - to make money. Even when they can easily find moral implications of things with stated purposes other than morality.

It implicates a lot more than business, and involves subjective arguments that I've never been able to wrap my head around enough to not feel like I'm just trumpeting my own opinions.

One thing I can lean on is that you can directly view the negative impact that this mentality has on society, even if it is difficult to impress on people that don't agree. I can only assume the issue is divided by morals and that the two sides of the argument are too polar to make much headway about the basic issue.

Or I just haven't thought about it enough yet.
The problem is I understand his point of view, I just completely disagree.
post #90 of 92
i'm just pointing out that these guys are great at their job. i'm not saying i like that it's that way, but i'm saying that these guys are self made billionaires and in that sense, they should be looked up to and respected. you don't have to like a man to respect him.
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