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How's the Canon 20D? -Help me find a camera-

post #1 of 32
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I just got done talking to a professional photographer and he said it was a good starter DSLR and I found a Craigslist posting for it for a good price. I might get it. Depends. Here is the link: http://orlando.craigslist.org/pho/2275651105.html

So how is it?
Edited by IzninjaFTW - 4/30/11 at 2:01pm
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post #2 of 32
The 20D is a *very* old DSLR. You'd be much better off getting one of the Rebel series these days. The image processing HW is far superior and most likely the sensor technology has improved significantly. One issue to be careful with is the dust specs on the sensor. These older DSLRs did not have automatic cleaning technology, and some of the dust spots will harden like tar. If you really want to get it, take some photos of a blue sky (or white wall) at f11 or higher (aka smaller aperture) and see how many dust spots you get. The stubborn ones are impossible to remove.

I have owned the 20D (it was my first DSLR which I bought in 2004!). It was a superb camera for its time and I truly enjoyed using it. I would really steer clear of a camera this old given you dont know its history (e.g. how many actuations). Some may call it venerable, I'll call it outdated and tired. You've got lots of better options these days.

Good luck on your choice!
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post #3 of 32
It's a good camera, but the price is too high for my taste. Buy a broken Canon point and shoot, and get a refurbished Rebel XS with 18-55mm IS kit lens through the Canon Loyalty Program
post #4 of 32
Thread Starter 

Soo something like this?


It looks like an epic camera. What does the lens do and what is the importance of it? (I know you need a lens just wondering what is the difference between that lens and a cheaper one?)

I am a complete noob at this and all help is appreciated
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post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by r31ncarnat3d View Post
It's a good camera, but the price is too high for my taste. Buy a broken Canon point and shoot, and get a refurbished Rebel XS with 18-55mm IS kit lens through the Canon Loyalty Program
i agree with r31n. for that price you can easily get a newer used camera with a kit lens.
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post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy View Post
i agree with r31n. for that price you can easily get a newer used camera with a kit lens.
Like the one I posted above?
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post #7 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzninjaFTW View Post
Like the one I posted above?
The link I had to CLP shows the Rebel XS with kit lens for only $319 + tax, which is only a bit more than the 20D and a lot cheaper than the Amazon link.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IzninjaFTW View Post
Soo something like this?
Amazon.com: Canon Rebel XS 10.1MP Digital SLR Camera with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens (Black): Camera & Photo

It looks like an epic camera. What does the lens do and what is the importance of it? (I know you need a lens just wondering what is the difference between that lens and a cheaper one?)

I am a complete noob at this and all help is appreciated
The lens focuses the image so the camera can take the shot.

As for the difference between this lens and the 20D lens, the 20D comes with a 50mm f/1.8 lens, whereas the Rebel XS comes with an 18-55mm IS lens.

The 50mm lens is the better lens, in my opinion. It has a much larger aperture (f/1.8 vs. a variable max aperture of f/3.5-5.6 on the 18-55mm) and has better IQ, IMO. However, the 50mm is a prime lens, meaning it has only one focal point @ 50mm. In layman's terms, this means the 50mm cannot zoom in or out; it's "stuck" at that 50mm focal point.

I heavily suggest the 18-55mm IS for a beginner photographer. While I prefer primes myself, they take a lot of getting used to, and I personally feel that a kit lens like the 18-55mm would be better as it makes the transition from point and shoot to DSLR easier, and gives you one less thing to worry about. Once you get the hand of manual photography, then I suggest you try a prime lens.

As for cheap lenses, cheap lenses have crap image quality. One of the rules of photography is that if you have to skimp on something, skimp on the body, not the lens. The lens is what you stick in front of the camera and resolves an image. A cheap lens will give you a soft image with lots of artifacts.

While I'm not a fan of DigitalRev's reviews, their photography-based videos are pretty good, esp for beginners, and I heavily suggest you watch .

And finally, if you're going into photography, you should really learn how to take a photo with manual settings. A DSLR on automatic wont take as good of a photo as a trained eye on one of the manual settings. You should see my guide (link in sig) and Dream Killer's for more info.
post #8 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r31ncarnat3d View Post
-snip-
Wow thank you so much for the help! So it looks like the Rebel XS will be my choice.

Thanks again
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post #9 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r31ncarnat3d View Post
It's a good camera, but the price is too high for my taste. Buy a broken Canon point and shoot, and get a refurbished Rebel XS with 18-55mm IS kit lens through the Canon Loyalty Program
Can't access the link for 30 days apparently
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post #10 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by IzninjaFTW View Post
Can't access the link for 30 days apparently
Huge quote from the page:

Quote:
Overview - The Canon Loyalty Program provides the opportunity to trade in an existing Canon product for a refurbished Canon Digital SLR. There are Point and Shoot and Video options available, but this Thread will focus on the DSLR options. The program initially required the trade in product to be broken (easy to accomplish), but recently they have relaxed this restriction to simply being out of warranty. There have been reports of Film Cameras being accepted, but for now assume that you will need a broken (or out of warranty) Canon Digital camera (P&S or DSLR).

This is a very fluid program. Pricing, availability, requirements, and eligibility have changed almost on a daily basis. You will also find a wide range of answers from the Customer Service Representatives at the CLP - especially regarding product availability. If you read about a new development and don't like the answer you initially get when calling, I would recommend calling back and checking with a different CSR.

How do I contact Canon? The phone number for the CLP is 1 (866) 443-8002. Select option "2".

When are they open? They are open 7 days a week. Phone lines are answered from 8:00AM to Midnight Eastern.

I have searched the Canon website and can't find anything about the Canon Loyalty Program. Why is that? Because it is not published on the website. The only way to order is via the phone number above.

What models are available? Current DSLR availability includes:
Canon XS (Removed from Program March 1, 2011)
Canon XS with 18-55 IS Kit Lens
Canon T1i
Canon T1i with 18-55 IS Kit Lens
Canon T2i
Canon T2i with 18-55 IS Kit Lens
Canon 40D (Removed from Program March 1, 2011)
Canon 40D with 28-135 IS Kit Lens (Removed from Program March 1, 2011)
Canon 50D
Canon 50D with 28-135 IS Kit Lens
Canon 7D
Canon 5D Mark II (Removed from the Program November 1, 2010).
If you are interested in a 5DMII I would recommend calling the toll free number above and asking for availability under the CLP.

Are there any Powershot Models available thru the CLP? If you are in the market for a refurbished Powershot camera, I would check the availability at the Canon Direct site and then call the phone number above and ask if the model you want is available thru the CLP. The link for Powershot models on Canon Direct is: http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs...10051_-1_12163

What is the cost? Prices as of April 11, 2011:
Canon XS - $319.99 (Removed from Program March 31, 2011)
Canon XS with 18-55 IS Kit Lens - $319.99 (Price cut from $399.99 April 1, 2011)

Canon T1i - $415.99
Canon T1i with 18-55 IS Kit Lens - $479.99

Canon T2i - $447.99 (Added to Program Feb 1, 2011 @ $511.99. Price cut March 1, 2011)
Canon T2i with 18-55 IS Kit Lens - $511.99 (Added to Program Feb 1, 2011 @ $575.99. Price cut March 1, 2011)

Canon 40D - $559.20 (Removed from Program March 1, 2011)
Canon 40D with 28-135 IS Kit Lens - $719.20 (Removed from Program March 1, 2011)

Canon 50D - $562.69 (Price cut March 1, 2011 from $719.20)
Canon 50D with 28-135 IS Kit Lens - $665.09 (Price cut March 1, 2011 from $839.20)

Canon 7D - $1,087.20 (Price increased to $1,119.20 briefly in early November 2010, but reduced back to original pricing in December 2010)

Canon 5D Mark II - $1,599.20 (Removed from Program November 1, 2010)

You will be charged your local state sales tax for your purchase UNLESS you live in the following states; Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, or Oregon (those states have no sales tax).

How can I pay? CLP accepts Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and American Express

What comes with my CLP Camera? You will receive a refurbished Canon Product. It will come in a plain white box, with a complete set of accessories (battery, charger, strap, cables, CD, Manuals - may or may not include a small capacity CF card). For orders placed from October 24, 2010 thru November 6, 2010 (while supplies last), Canon is including 2 each 1 GB Compact Flash memory cards with each camera ordered. Initial reports are that the included cards lack both needed capacity and write speed for the higher end models.

What is a "Refurbished" Camera? Refurbished cameras include: dealer overstocks, damaged packaging returns, test units pulled from production, and customer returns. Refurbished cameras are calibrated to factory specifications, updated to latest firmware, and in most cases cannot be distinguished from new products. The majority of the cameras are arriving to buyers with a shutter count of less than 1,000, with some as low as 12-15.

Are there any markings or other identification for a refurbished camera? There will be a small 1/4 inch gold sticker located on the bottom of the camera and on the side of the kit lens. "Refurbished" is written in red letters. The sticker can be easily removed.

What is the Warranty? Warranty is 90 days from delivery. Service must be done thru the CLP which will require returning the camera to Canon. There have been only a few reports of OOB (Out of Box) issues, which have been addressed by Canon with a replacement.

Can I get an extended coverage warranty from a third party? Yes. There are a number of 3rd party Extended Service Contracts available for Refurbished Electronics. Google "Canon Digital SLR Extended Service Contracts" and find the option that best fits your individual needs. One option is $80 for 2 years available here:

http://www.adorama.com/IMXW2UP.html

Why do I need a trade in? The trade in provides you the additional discount (20%) off the published Canon Refurbished Prices. The Customer Service Rep may ask for the serial number from your trade in product.

Do I need to be the original owner of the trade in? Do I need to provide the original receipt? Does the trade in need to be registered with Canon? No to all of the above. The only requirement is that the product be a Canon camera that is out of warranty. You also do not need to return any accessories that go with the original camera when you ship the trade in; batteries, straps, cables, manuals, can all be kept. Just return the stripped down camera.

I don't own any Canon products that I can / want to trade in. How can I take advantage of this program? Check eBay, your local Craigslist, or post in the POTN Buy Forum. You should be able to purchase a broken Point and Shoot for under $30. If you end up having a P&S shipped to you, don't forget that you will need the serial number to place your order.

What if I have a broken DSLR such as a 10D, 20D, 30D, 40D, etc. - can I get a bigger trade-in credit? No! The model of the camera is irrelevant to the trade in value. As a result, if you have a broken 50D that is out of warranty, you may be better to repair and sell it, or sell it for parts as opposed to using it on this program.

What happens if I don't return the trade in? Canon will charge your Credit Card for the discount if the Return is not received within 14 business days of shipment of your CLP product. Several members have reported difficulty in receiving the return label for the trade-in camera, while others have reported not returning it at all without consequence. I would recommend erring on the side of following the program for no other reason than it is easier to drop off a prepaid shipment at UPS than it is to fight for a credit should your credit card be charged the amount of the 20% discount after Canon does not receive the return. (Don't forget that since they are generating the pre-paid shipping label, they will have the tracking number!)

What happens if I change my mind? There is a 14 Business Day Return Policy for refunds should you change your mind. After that ALL SALES ARE FINAL. One important note: If you return the trade-in during the 14 days, the sale is considered completed and final. In other words, you will not be able to return the camera for a refund if you have shipped your trade-in back to Canon. If you decide to return your refurbished camera to Canon for a refund, DO NOT USE THE TRADE-IN LABEL FOR A RETURN! THE TRADE IN LABEL GOES TO A RECYCLING FACILITY WHERE THE CAMERA YOU SHIP WILL BE DESTROYED. IF YOU RETURN YOUR PURCHASED CAMERA USING THE CANON SHIPPING LABEL YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE CREDIT FOR THE RETURN AND YOUR PURCHASED CAMERA WILL BE DESTROYED

After I place my order what happens? After ordering, you will receive 5 emails; in this order:
- Welcome to Canon account (creating your account)
- Canon Account Password request (activating your account)
- Order Number (acknowledging your order)
- Shipment (acknowledging shipment)
- Canon Consumer Products Recycle Label (shipping label for return of your trade in)

How is it shipped? Standard shipping is FedEx 2nd business day shipping. There is a line item for the shipping charge, but it is credited back to you - so essentially it's free shipping. If you are in a hurry, you will have the option of Next Business Day shipping for an additional charge of $12.00. Shipment will be "Signature Required" (You will be warned that FedEx will NOT leave it at your door if no one is home). Shipping cutoff is around noon Eastern, so if you order early morning and there are no credit issues to hold you order, chances are your camera will ship the same day.

How can I track my order? FedEx tracking number will be included in your shipment acknowledgment.

How can I check availability without calling Canon? Check the availability of the model you are interested in on the Canon Direct Store:

http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs...10051_-1_29252

Inventory changes daily! If your desired model is not available, check back.

Are Lens products available with this program? Other than the kit options for the XS, T1i, and T2i (which include the 18-55 lens), and the 50D (which includes the 28-135 lens) there are no lens options available.

Is there a limit to the number of times I can participate in this program? It has been reported that there is a limit of 3 transactions per address, however your individual experience may vary.

Is the program available in Canada, UK, Australia, Asia, South America, Africa, etc? Currently this program is for the United States only. It has been reported that Canon Canada is considering a similar program, but that is not confirmed yet. If you are outside the United States, I would check with your Canon National Sales Office.

Contact information for worldwide offices can be found at http://www.canon.com/

When does the Program end? The Canon Loyalty Program has been running for approximately 3 years. There is currently no published expiration date for the CLP. However, that does not mean that the program cannot end at anytime without notice.

How can I check the shutter count after I receive my refurbished camera? Shutter count for the 40D, 50D, and 5DMII can be determined with EOSinfo. Download the program here: http://astrojargon.net/EOSInfo.aspx.

Currently there is no software available for the Windows operating system to read the shutter counter on the T1i, T2i, 7D or 60D. There is an application developed for Linux called gphoto2 that can be used for the 7D (and I assume the other bodies as well). Full instructions for booting Linux on your Windows PC or Laptop can be found on this post: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...2&postcount=19

Download site for gphoto2 is located here: http://www.gphoto.org/ Gphoto2 can also be used via openSUSE, Redhat, etc.

I want to learn more about other POTN members experiences with this program and I have a lot of spare time on my hands - where can I go?
Check these threads to read about fellow POTN members experiences with the program:

From the Marketplace Forum:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=918120

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=742683

From the EOS Digital Camera Forum:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=948196

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=947441

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=937525

Outside Links:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/849344/

http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-lo...tomer-loyalty/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hopefully this answers most of the most common questions that people have about the program.

If anyone has any updates, please post here and I will add / update the Questions above so people new to the program don't need to search a large thread.

Smacatl
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