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[ZDNET] Why Intel's 22nm technology really matters - Page 9

post #81 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger.blue View Post
Then I'll make it simple. Intel has a superior product because they have the money to put into R&D, AMD does not. Why doesn't AMD have said money? Because when the DEMAND for AMD's product was high, Intel executed illegal business practices to cut off the SUPPLY of components to OEM's. This happened as late as 2006, which, coincidentally coincided with AMD's decline. So why is Intel worth so much and AMD so little? The money that should have been AMD's became Intel's via illegal means. The money that should have been Nvidia's and ATI's for their IGP's (the biggest GPU market) became Intel's.

Again, Intel did not just bribe Dell, it threatened companies like HP and Fujitsu (Fujitsu especially) and software developers.

Is Intel still doing this? No, the FTC is threatening Section 5 against them and their monopoly is no longer threatened.

http://www.antitrustlawyerblog.com/2...ues_intel.html Read the article if care about what the lawsuit is actually about. Or you can just pretend that it was because Intel "bribed" Dell. Sorry, but that's only a very minor part of it.

However, if circumstances had taken their normal course we would have AMD's processors evolving along a normal path to where they would still be competitive and we would see Intel also going along its normal path. It wouldn't have been a spike for Intel and a decline for AMD. And I'm sorry if you fail to see that.

CPU's take many years to develope and as such, not receiving funds from 1999 through 2006 would make an enourmous dent on research and development.
This is why I do not like Intel. Intel bullied it's way into a greater market share thus affecting AMD's profits, which in turn is less money for R&D. The AMD haters/Intel fanboys here think that AMD just sucks because, but they don't want to see the truth as what you have said and quoted. Once again an OCN thread fails because of the brand bashing by un-educated people. #SIGH#

(And before someone says it, NOT LIKING A BRAND IS NOT BASHING IT, ok????)
Edited by Obakemono - 5/7/11 at 10:31pm
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post #82 of 192
I like turtles.
    
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post #83 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth View Post
I like turtles.
Whats this guy? the meme generator?

3d gates ftw. Intel ftw.
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post #84 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger.blue View Post
Then I'll make it simple. Intel has a superior product because they have the money to put into R&D, AMD does not. Why doesn't AMD have said money? Because when the DEMAND for AMD's product was high, Intel executed illegal business practices to cut off the SUPPLY of components to OEM's. This happened as late as 2006, which, coincidentally coincided with AMD's decline. So why is Intel worth so much and AMD so little? The money that should have been AMD's became Intel's via illegal means. The money that should have been Nvidia's and ATI's for their IGP's (the biggest GPU market) became Intel's.

Again, Intel did not just bribe Dell, it threatened companies like HP and Fujitsu (Fujitsu especially) and software developers.

Is Intel still doing this? No, the FTC is threatening Section 5 against them and their monopoly is no longer threatened.

http://www.antitrustlawyerblog.com/2...ues_intel.html Read the article if care about what the lawsuit is actually about. Or you can just pretend that it was because Intel "bribed" Dell. Sorry, but that's only a very minor part of it.

However, if circumstances had taken their normal course we would have AMD's processors evolving along a normal path to where they would still be competitive and we would see Intel also going along its normal path. It wouldn't have been a spike for Intel and a decline for AMD. And I'm sorry if you fail to see that.

CPU's take many years to develope and as such, not receiving funds from 1999 through 2006 would make an enourmous dent on research and development.
Intel payed AMD for what hey did. However, since 2006 you can't blame Intel for AMD's lack of R&D. Intel didn't force AMD to buy ATI for 5.4 BILLION dollars. Just imagine if AMD had invested 5.4B into R&D.

At this point you are blaming Intel for being too good. AMD's management / decisions have been crap for years. I fondly remember when AMD processors were superior to Intel's. IMO AMD was too confident during their Athlon 64 days. They should have been dumping a majority of their profits into R&D. Instead Intel released C2D in 2006, and it wasn't until the END of 2007 when AMD finally released Phenom.

On topic: 3D transistors are important because once you go below 22nm, traditional transistors limitations rear their head. Mainly power efficiency, heat produced, and the speed at which they operate. 3D transistors should help reduce power usage / heat produced, and due to this the chips should be able to run faster.
Edited by AtomicFrost - 5/7/11 at 11:25pm
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post #85 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFrost View Post
Intel payed AMD for what happened. However, since 2006 you can't blame Intel for AMD's lack of R&D. Intel didn't force AMD to buy ATI for 5.4 BILLION dollars. Just imagine if AMD had invested 5.4B into R&D.

On topic: 3D transistors are important because once you go below 22nm, traditional transistors limitations rear their head. Mainly power efficiency, heat produced, and the speed at which they operate. 3D transistors should help reduce power usage / heat produced, and due to this the chips should be able to run faster.
Yes, this is true, but Intel paid AMD in 2009 and a sum that should have been higher, but they settled for that to avoid a prolonged trial. I mean look at what happens with Tobacco trials, the plaintiff usually dies before the trial is ever concluded (let alone begins). But my point is, they were paid in 2009 and now we are hopefully to see gains from that with Bulldozer. AMD was not paid prior to 2009 and thus we got Phenom I/II which was just a revision of their 2001 architecture. CPU's take years to develope so we couldn't see gains from R&D the very second Intel paid them said settlement, it just doesn't work that way.

The fact is, AMD should have been growing as a company, but was instead declining while Intel rose. As for the ATI acquisition, we are seeing gains from that now that we have Fusion and hopefully Llano. Again, these things don't happen over night, they take many years to come into fruition. The ATI acquisition has proven to be a very smart move, however, since that division of the company is extremely healthy.

And that's that. Again, I apologize for letting this get so far off topic, but another poster opened the door by claiming Intel is a legitimate monopoly and I only meant to show that that was not the case.

Either we agree or we don't, but the facts happen to be on my side with this.
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post #86 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger.blue View Post
Yes, this is true, but Intel paid AMD in 2009 and a sum that should have been higher, but they settled for that to avoid a prolonged trial. I mean look at what happens with Tobacco trials, the plaintiff usually dies before the trial is ever concluded (let alone begins). But my point is, they were paid in 2009 and now we are hopefully to see gains from that with Bulldozer. AMD was not paid prior to 2009 and thus we got Phenom I/II which was just a revision of their 2001 architecture. CPU's take years to develope so we couldn't see gains from R&D the very second Intel paid them said settlement, it just doesn't work that way.

The fact is, AMD should have been growing as a company, but was instead declining while Intel rose. As for the ATI acquisition, we are seeing gains from that now that we have Fusion and hopefully Llano. Again, these things don't happen over night, they take many years to come into fruition. The ATI acquisition has proven to be a very smart move, however, since that division of the company is extremely healthy.

And that's that. Again, I apologize for letting this get so far off topic, but another poster opened the door by claiming Intel is a legitimate monopoly and I only meant to show that that was not the case.

Either we agree or we don't, but the facts happen to be on my side with this.
I do agree that Intel should have paid more, but it was AMD that decided to accept the offer in the end.

The ATI acquisition was a bad decision at the time. AMD way overpaid, ATI didn't have a new architecture to go up against NVIDIA, and in the end AMD had to write off most of ATI's value.

Now with that said, at this point in time ATI is finaly starting to show some value for AMD. However, this came at the cost of slower CPUs compared to Intel. I fear that due to the cost AMD paid for ATI (money, time), they may never be able to catch up to / surpass Intel again when it comes to pure performance.

Both of us agree that what Intel did was illegal. However, you can't blame Intel of all of AMD's problems.

I also am sorry that this thread has gotten so off topic. I will try to refrain from anymore VS. discussions.

On topic: Has Intel announced when they will start releasing Xeon chips with 3D transistors? I can't wait to see how 3D transistors could effect Xeon's power usage / heat output. 3D transistors might give Intel a big advantage in the server market.
Edited by AtomicFrost - 5/7/11 at 11:54pm
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post #87 of 192
What socket will this be on?
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post #88 of 192
The whole debate is ridiculous and superfluous. Intel are not to blame for all AMD's shortcomings. There has been no corporate espionage, Intel hasn't sabotaged AMD's efforts internally.

I'm not a fanboy. I've mentioned this earlier. Yet I see no reason to continue spouting this trash about illegal practices. It no longer happens. AMD are behind because they are behind. Not because of Intel.
    
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post #89 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFrost View Post
On topic: Has Intel announced when they will start releasing Xeon chips with 3D transistors? I can't wait to see how 3D transistors could effect Xeon's power usage / heat output. 3D transistors might give Intel a big advantage in the server market.
3D Gate transistors will start with 22nm Ivy Bridges, so yes, Xeon will have them as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxitrxxx View Post
What socket will this be on?
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post #90 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
The whole debate is ridiculous and superfluous. Intel are not to blame for all AMD's shortcomings. There has been no corporate espionage, Intel hasn't sabotaged AMD's efforts internally.

I'm not a fanboy. I've mentioned this earlier. Yet I see no reason to continue spouting this trash about illegal practices. It no longer happens. AMD are behind because they are behind. Not because of Intel.
So tell me how do you get ahead without any money . ~80%+ of the market owned by Intel at the time, do you know much money AMD lost out on? Honestly...you think if Intel hadn't done what they did, AMD would be the underdog right now?
    
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