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post #8281 of 9343
Good call on the SATA being affected and not the SSD...
rep that.. thumb.gif
post #8282 of 9343

The only thing that confuses me here is this is what Juan Jose at ASUS wrote in his overclocking guide (I edited it slightly to improve understanding):

 

Quote:
In addition, continued testing with Internal PLL Overvoltage enabled on D2 or retail parts have shown some benefits to CStates being disabled when approaching, at, or exceeding a 50x multiplier. An important note to keep in mind is that disabling CStates can considerably affect HD performance ( especially SATA6G ) Please keep this in mind when going for the highest level overclocks.


So it sounds like he's saying that disabling C states (C3 and C6 included??) can "considerably affect" SATA performance.  Notice that he says "especially SATA6G", which is SATA III.  I'm not using my SATA III ports, so this may be why I'm not noticing any difference on way or the other.

 

However, also note that he said, "when approaching, at, or exceeding a 50x multiplier".  I interpret this as maybe 49, 50, or higher, but I realize that even 47x can be considered "approaching" 50x.  However, he then says to keep this in mind when going for the highest overclocks, and 47 isn't exactly one of the "highest".  48x is kind of the beginning of that.

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post #8283 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by malmental View Post

me, I would try this first just to see how it goes.
LLC - Medium possibly switching to high @ 4.8GHz and Duty Control - Thermal also possibly switching @ 4.8GHz
Phase - Optimized

as for C-States and SSD performance - I DO NOT REALLY KNOW to be honest bro...
I leave them enabled or on auto if (BIOS defaults) already have them set.
my units (all of them) have these settings and all have enter sleep mode at one time or another and came out / come out just fine, ready to roll.
I have yet to have an issue (knock on wood)..
as for the performance as in speed of the SSD (read/write) affected from C-States like first sentence, I don't know.

but now you have me curious..

Thanks. I will try this. I do use the Additional Turbo Voltage setting though. Are you familiar with this? It seems that there is a limit that no matter how high I increase this setting, the load core voltage remains the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

This Anandtech article does not apply to today's recommended motherboards.  Pretty much all of today's recommended motherboards are not affected by this voltage spike even with high LLC settings because of the quality of the components on the motherboard (such as the VRM).  Technology has come a long way since then.  Yes, there are still boards that have parts that are so low in quality that it is a risk, but those boards aren't recommended to anyone anyway.



I was one of the people who showed you that it doesn't apply anymore because today's motherboards have such good components and parts on the PCB that there's no risk of this voltage spike, even with higher LLC settings.  Technology has come a long way since then, and this is one of those ways.

Let me ask you this:  is anyone reporting problems these days due to the voltage spike explained in that article?  No, so that's even more evidence that it's no longer an issue.  It hasn't been an issue since about a year after that article was published.

I used to post those two pages frequently back in the Core2 days, and I even kept doing it when socket 1366 came out.  Eventually, some of the experts here on OCN stopped me and showed me how far technology has come and that it's no longer an issue because the voltage spike is suppressed (or stopped?) before it ever reaches the CPU.



Only if using an Offset voltage.



When C3 and C6 are set to Auto or Enabled, they only kick in when the CPU is idling.  So when the CPU is not idling, C3 and C6 become disabled (in a sense), and thus they stop negatively affecting SATA performance (that is, if it's even true that the SATA performance is adversely affected when C3 and C6 are active, which only happens when the CPU is idling).



No, he's saying the same thing.  Here's his post again, but with my changes in hopes of making it easier to understand:


There's one thing everyone is misunderstanding here:  it's not that SSD performance is adversely affected; it's the SATA performance.

Anyway, what everyone is saying is this:  when C3 and C6 are enabled, the only way they will have any affect on SATA performance is if the CPU is idling because that's when the C3 and C6 states are active.  Fortunately, these two states are immediately deactivated as soon as there's any kind of load on the CPU at all.  So, you'd have to run an SSD benchmark while the CPU is idling in order to see any adverse effects.  I don't know if that's possible, but it sounds like it might be.

I'm not worried about it because I have C3 and C6 enabled and I feel absolutely no difference in my system's performance.  This is because I'm an average user, and the average user is not going to have an idling CPU when using their SATA ports (such as for a hard drive, solid state drive, or optical drives).  I mean, think about:  what is your computer usually doing when your SATA ports are in use?  It's usually doing something that requires the CPU.  So, having C3 and C6 enabled should make absolutely no difference to the SATA performance for the average user.

Plus, by having C3 and C6 enabled, my system is now using 14-15W less than it was before.


Just for clarification:  this has nothing to do with Sleep mode.  It's the difference between the idle state and the loaded state.

My bad then, I was the one who misunderstood.

Thank you for this great explanation. So that means most of the time our system is not idling which means C3/C6 are disabled? Even when just browsing, our CPUs will go to full load, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

The only thing that confuses me here is this is what Juan Jose at ASUS wrote in his overclocking guide (I edited it slightly to improve understanding):



So it sounds like he's saying that disabling C states (C3 and C6 included??) can "considerably affect" SATA performance. Notice that he says "especially SATA6G", which is SATA III. I'm not using my SATA III ports, so this may be why I'm not noticing any difference on way or the other.

However, also note that he said, "when approaching, at, or exceeding a 50x multiplier". I interpret this as maybe 49, 50, or higher, but I realize that even 47x can be considered "approaching" 50x. However, he then says to keep this in mind when going for the highest overclocks, and 47 isn't exactly one of the "highest". 48x is kind of the beginning of that.

This is really confusing. Now I just have to test it out myself smile.gif

Oh by the way, somebody said here: www.overclock.net/t/754763/as-ssd-benchmark-thread/2760 that disabling C1E will also increase the 4K speeds of your SSD.

And also in the Sandy Stable thread, it was explained there that disabling C3/C6 produced better SSD benchmark results.

So there's really a lot of mixed comments going around here.
Edited by kevindd992002 - 2/6/13 at 11:22am
post #8284 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post


Thanks. I will try this. I do use the Additional Turbo Voltage setting though. Are you familiar with this? It seems that there is a limit that no matter how high I increase this setting, the load core voltage remains the same.
My bad then, I was the one who misunderstood.

Thank you for this great explanation. So that means most of the time our system is not idling

 

No.  It's only idling when it's idling.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

which means C3/C6 are disabled?

 

I think a better word might be "deactivated" because using the words "enabled" and "disabled" can cause anyone to think you're referring to the setting in the BIOS.

 

C3 and C6 are deeper sleep states for the CPU when it's idling.  So if it's not idling, then it's not in the C3 and C6 states.  It's like, when you are awake, you're not in your sleep state.  If you're not at rest, then you're not in your rest state.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

 Even when just browsing, our CPUs will go to full load, right?

 

Well, I guess it would be a full load if what you're doing with your browser is just that demanding on the CPU.  I mean, it's just like with you:  if you go walking around, then is your body under full load?  Not really.

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post #8285 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

This is really confusing. Now I just have to test it out myself smile.gif

Oh by the way, somebody said here: www.overclock.net/t/754763/as-ssd-benchmark-thread/2760 that disabling C1E will also increase the 4K speeds of your SSD.

And also in the Sandy Stable thread, it was explained there that disabling C3/C6 produced better SSD benchmark results.

So there's really a lot of mixed comments going around here.

 

Well, I don't see, feel, or notice any difference, so I don't care.  :)  My system pulls less power with C1E, C3 and C6 enabled, so that's good enough for me.

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post #8286 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

You better learn to comprehend the word "unless". You are saying the same exact opposite as what GeneO's telling us.

GeneO says that most people frequently enter the idle states which is why C3/C6 will kick in and will affect SSD performance.

You are saying, on the other hand, that most of the time the CPU has "jobs" which makes it always in full load and so the C3/C6 settings don't have an effect.

Please correct me if my understanding of what you're saying is wrong. I'm really having a hard time reading your past-tensed words, sorry redface.gif
"You system enters these states frequently unless you are running a constant load like Prime 95 or something, which you rarely do."
In this statement: unless you're running "Prime95 or something" - or anything that use CPU processing power, e.g. loading/playing games, rendering, etc - CPU will idle & then CPU will enter C3/C6 states. In my understanding, the "which you rarely do" referring to "Prime 95 or something".

This is my version:-
"Disabling C3/C6 states can improved SSD performance, so the only way to prevent CPU from entering C3/C6 states when C3/C6 enabled are by preventing the CPU from idling. I don't think HDD/SSD benchmark tool put enough load to CPU. So, run something in the background & run benchmark, see the result."
By "run something" means run anything that load up CPU, preventing it from going to idling & therefore entering sleep states. At the same time run HDD/SSD benchmark, see if the number improves.

In my opinion, HDD/SSD benchmark software doesn't use a lot of processing power & when this happen some cores if not all will enter sleep states. Because of this you got poor result in benchmark. If you disabled C3/C6 states, you get better benchmark because even though the benchmark software doesn't use a lot of processing power, CPU doesn't enter C3/C6 states but it always ready to work (C1 state at least).

I don't know why C3/C6 states can cause poor SSD performance or to be exact poor benchmark result. I do know there's lag when transitioning from C3/C6 to "working" state (C0) but this is microscopic lag, unnoticeable. However, the lag probably enough to cause the SATA controller to "underperform". This is my understanding though.

Let see real world application. Unlike HDD/SSD benchmark software, real world application usually use CPU processing power. For example, when loading/starting games, it definitely use CPU processing power. CPU "wakes" from sleep states, SATA controller managed to "recover" & SSD performs as it should be. This is why many people claims they didn't noticed any difference in performance whether C3/C6 states disabled or enabled because SSD should perform as it should be. Unlike benchmark software, real world doesn't represent performance with numbers. That's why if you want see some numbers, running something in the background to keep CPU loaded & run benchmark.

Regarding "idle", don't confuse it with C3/C6. C3/C6 are CPU sleep states. CPU will idle either C3/C6 states are enabled or disabled. The only difference between the two is the latter CPU doesn't enter C3/C6 states.

English is my second language. I already tried my best.
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post #8287 of 9343

And don't confuse the CPU's sleep states with Sleep Mode.

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post #8288 of 9343
The C states are called idle-states, not sleep-states, so should be referred to as idle-state.

To kizwan: whenever your CPU is to maxed out to 100%, it will be idling and enter c idle states. Real world is you don't run your CPU in a mode that it doesn't frequently idle. Also the lag is not unnoticeable - it is what causes the benchmark to get lower scores - so it is noticeable. It won't be as noticeable in real-world, but I bet it does. In any case, I will do some real world comparisons once I figure out how to do that biggrin.gif
post #8289 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

There's one thing everyone is misunderstanding here:  it's not that SSD performance is adversely affected; it's the SATA performance.
I agree but when SATA performance effected, it will impact SSD performance too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Anyway, what everyone is saying is this:  when C3 and C6 are enabled, the only way they will have any affect on SATA performance is if the CPU is idling because that's when the C3 and C6 states are active.  Fortunately, these two states are immediately deactivated as soon as there's any kind of load on the CPU at all.  So, you'd have to run an SSD benchmark while the CPU is idling in order to see any adverse effects.  I don't know if that's possible, but it sounds like it might be.
In my opinion, HDD/SSD benchmark tools doesn't use a lot CPU processing power. When it execute task, CPU wake up & do the job but since it doesn't use a lot of processing power, the job done fast & CPU will go back to into C3/C6 sleep states. This what effect the result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

Just for clarification:  this has nothing to do with Sleep mode.  It's the difference between the idle state and the loaded state.
C-states also known as CPU sleep states. The deeper the states like C3 or C6, the less power consumption. I don't have the detail for the other sleep states but in C6, CPU will save what it is working to memory & reduce the voltage to zero. C0 state is when CPU is working. Yes, they're not referring to computer sleep/hibernate mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

And don't confuse the CPU's sleep states with Sleep Mode.
When did I confuse between the two? I even correcting someone in a couple pages back:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

That is incorrect. C3 & C6 is one of the CPU sleep states. It's not for computer sleep/hibernation function. It is useful to bring down power consumption when idling. When CPU core doesn't have job, it will enter one of these states & this help reduced power consumption. For example, when CPU core enter C6 state, voltage is reduced to zero, hence the power consumption also zero.

For locked CPU (not overclockable), C3 & C6 states help CPU enter Turbo Boost. For unlocked CPU, it's useful for low power consumption when idling.
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post #8290 of 9343
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post


I agree but when SATA performance effected, it will impact SSD performance too.

 

That goes without saying it.  It's less confusing to say "SATA performance" because this will not allow anyone to get the false impression that their hard drives will be unaffected.

 

So, SATA performance.  Not SSD performance.  It's less confusing and more accurate.  Saying "SATA performance" tells everyone that anything connected to a SATA port can be affected.  Saying "SSD performance" looks like it means that only SSDs are affected which is not true.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

C-states also known as CPU sleep states. The deeper the states like C3 or C6, the less power consumption. I don't have the detail for the other sleep states but in C6, CPU will save what it is working to memory & reduce the voltage to zero. C0 state is when CPU is working. Yes, they're not referring to computer sleep/hibernate mode.

 

Right, but as you know, there's something many people use that's called "Sleep Mode".  What I'm saying is, we should not allow anyone to confuse this stuff with Sleep Mode.  Do you know what I mean when I say "Sleep Mode"?

 

I mean, I know that they're also called sleep states, so all I'm doing is making sure no one confuses it with Sleep Mode.  I like to keep things as clear as possible.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

When did I confuse between the two? I even correcting someone in a couple pages back:-

 

I'm not saying that you did.  I'm just trying to make sure no one confuses it with Sleep Mode.


Edited by TwoCables - 2/6/13 at 12:24pm
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It's a computer!
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