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[NewScientist] Talk with a dolphin via underwater translation machine - Page 3

post #21 of 37
This is interesting. I know you can already do this with Bonobo Chimpanzees, and dolphins are supposed to be more intelligent than them.
post #22 of 37
http://www.ranker.com/list/the-15-sm...analise.dubner

Since we can't prove the ability to be self-aware without some hard evidence, at least I don't think any of the current tests "prove" it, we have issues with ranking animals. This is a decent list, at least it shows a good view on the current thoughts behind intelligence.

Also, the elephant one is a little creepy. Though they could have been taught to do that specific design. I'm under the impression that they weren't, which shows something amazing. Though some primates have done the same thing, it's just more fascinating with an elephant because they have multiple handicaps.

[edit] K, so scratch orangutang with Ape, but still a primate. Dolphin would probably fall next or equal, as well as elephant could possibly be 3rd. Crows are known to be extremely intelligent, something most people don't know. Though I think her list gets more and more biased after that. lol that was a poor, my bad.

[edit2]
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Which...es-31731.shtml

The ape is thought of as the smartest. I could get peer review articles but that's too much work.
Edited by mushroomboy - 5/12/11 at 9:37am
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post #23 of 37
Been there, done that:

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post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuad View Post
I wonder if these captives have ever asked to be free. Oh wait, no I don't.
If they have been captive their entire life they may not no what freedom is :/
post #25 of 37
Most animals are sentient. Sentient means able to feel or perceive things. Is there anyone here who doubts that animals are able to perceive or feel?

As for questioning whether an animal is self-aware? Dolphins recognize themselves in mirrors as do a couple of great apes http://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/5937.long Such evidence is probative but dispositive. Is mirror recognition a sufficient or necessary condition to show self-awareness?

The questions I would have many of you ask are what you mean by self-aware? When does a person become self aware? Before language acquisition, during, or after? Does it turn on like a light or does it flicker on and off for a while? Maybe it's a slow dim.

I think that when people start asking about self awareness they are often asking the question "Does an animal think of itself as an 'I'?" It's a very cartesian notion. Cogito Ergo Sum -- I think therefore I am. I am a thinking thing. Descartes of course admits he can never doubt the meaning of his words. The concept of self-awareness is entirely tied up in humanness and our language.
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post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzalias View Post
There's no proof of that. Jesus, you're such a Primate fanboy.

I love how people assume that intelligence between divergent species would develop in parallel.

How many humans have learned dolphinese? Exactly. If they're of lesser intelligence for having a rudimentary understanding of our language, what does that make us to them?


I'm having an acid flashback, someone help me .
EDIT: All better!
Bonobo Apes are fully capable of formulating sentences and communicating with humans--those at the Bonobo research center that is--via picture tablets. I'd have to dig out an old text book to cite sources, but don't give me that "there's no proof!" when there is plenty. I am just too lazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro View Post
Been there, done that:

"Darwin play!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Crows are known to be extremely intelligent, something most people don't know.
Indeed! ^

There was a study conducted on crows that demonstrated their ability to use tools to gather food that was otherwise impossible to get. They set up some meat in a container that could only be retrieved with a tool and they left tools lying around of various shapes and sizes, the problem was that other birds had made off with the tools leaving just a container and meat inside. What was amazing about the crow, however, was that with the absence of proper tools, the crow actually made it's own make-shift tool and successfully retrieved the meat.
Edited by dodger.blue - 5/12/11 at 9:00pm
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post #27 of 37
No care, they did this is Scooby-Doo.
post #28 of 37

sentience is the ability to have sensations or experiences (known as "qualia"). For Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care. The term is central to the philosophy of animal rights, because sentience implies the ability to suffer, which entails certain rights. In science fiction, a non-human character described as "sentient" will typically have similar abilities, qualities and rights to a human being.

    
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post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadamir View Post
Most animals are sentient. Sentient means able to feel or perceive things. Is there anyone here who doubts that animals are able to perceive or feel?

As for questioning whether an animal is self-aware? Dolphins recognize themselves in mirrors as do a couple of great apes http://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/5937.long Such evidence is probative but dispositive. Is mirror recognition a sufficient or necessary condition to show self-awareness?

The questions I would have many of you ask are what you mean by self-aware? When does a person become self aware? Before language acquisition, during, or after? Does it turn on like a light or does it flicker on and off for a while? Maybe it's a slow dim.

I think that when people start asking about self awareness they are often asking the question "Does an animal think of itself as an 'I'?" It's a very cartesian notion. Cogito Ergo Sum -- I think therefore I am. I am a thinking thing. Descartes of course admits he can never doubt the meaning of his words. The concept of self-awareness is entirely tied up in humanness and our language.
A self-aware being understands the concept of consciousness as well as understanding their own consciousness. Animals are unaware of the idea behind thought. They may think and create complex thoughts, they do not know what they are doing when it happens. To say a self-aware being has to be self-conscious about it's own actions.

[edit] It thinks about the actions it makes and is aware of this. The idea of inner dialog, self-aware.

[edit2] Hence why it's impossible to say something else is self-aware unless we can fully communicate with it (or an extreme situation like below).

Lets take the mirror example, we think they understand reflection. Now if the creature marked us in a way and brought us to the mirror, that would lean heavily towards the creature understanding reality in a way that we might consider it to be self-aware. That would be an excellent find, otherwise the mirror test is pointless.
Edited by mushroomboy - 5/13/11 at 12:20am
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post #30 of 37
I appreciate your response Mushroom boy, but imagine you come across a group of people who you have no hope of communicating with (no translator/never encountered before, you decide). Are you saying that you would not be able to tell if they were self-aware or not?

So when did humans become self-aware? Did one day someone wake up and say I have consciousness and consciousness is this inner dialog?
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