Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Sound Cards and Computer Audio › OCN's Most Recommended Audio Products
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

OCN's Most Recommended Audio Products - Page 38

post #371 of 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

For what it's worth, I compared the speakers without any digital enhancements, i.e. Audyssey, to get a sense of the difference between the two Receivers. [ . . . ] This is with an HT Omega Claro Halo XT Sound Card.
I know that the price range is different between the two, but I will say that it does go to show that audio perception and appreciation is HIGHLY individual; but there is still a great about of difference between various audio products... One amp does not equal another! Stuff like Monster Cables are a joke, and made for suckers... But that is NOT the same for headphone amplifiers, which encompass an already educated and niche market.
Again, everyone, I am very sorry and I feel very bad that my first posts have started an argument here :/ I hope, everyone, that you won't hold it against me. I came here to continue learning and to hopefully give back, and that is what I intend to do.
Sincerely,
nleksan

All of the tests you've described don't properly follow the scientific method and they do not constitute evidence. You are offering merely anecdote. Here's an article that explains why your "testing" isn't really valid testing: http://www.digido.com/level-practices-part-2-includes-the-k-system.html (You can't trust your ears to match levels)

Also your blurb about THX demonstrates that you are quite susceptible to marketing.

Once again, there's no scientific proof of demonstrable difference between items in the chain outside of the transducers in the modern day. There is a wealth of proof however demonstrating that modern DACs and amps sound the same.

Your preference of the Grados are rational since transducers do measure differently and these measurements are audible.

Also, don't feel bad: you're with the majority here that subscribe to the audiophile propaganda.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 12/21/11 at 2:52pm
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
post #372 of 5030
Depends on the testing methodology as stated. For example, even though ABX tests are valid, the way it's conducted by most people makes their results invalid.

For example, any change of positioning of the head closer towards one speaker over another affects the HRTF and thus frequency response of what you are hearing. Same applies to the positioning of the headphone on the head or the insertion depth of the in-ear. All these are scitifically backed and easy to find for me. Not to mention dynamic range of the track. I'm not talking dynamic range of the medium it's on, but the track's dynamic range. Both entirely different things.

Output impedance in headphone outs are still a major problem in devices these days. This is due to a number of reasons, including 'pre-iPod / stuck in the 1980s' thinking that some electrical engineers still have at some major companies.

The difference in headphones is most obvious via frequency response graphs, but also other things such as impedance matching and HRTF factors.

Honestly don't underrate HRTF factors, particularly in headphones, where it affects the sound significantly, more so than speakers tbh.
post #373 of 5030
Also give a brief but good read of this:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/03/benchmark-dac1-pre.html

Some DACs are actually deliberately designed different (to appease that crowd).

I would argue that there is some contention between 'pursuit of realism' vs. 'pursuit of lowest distortion'.

Why?

Because all speakers, including top-end studio monitors used in the biggest name studios around the world, introduce harmonic distortion in the process. As headphone tend to have lower harmonic distortion than speakers, this can make a lot of headphones 'sound cold' as of course harmonic distortion introduces 'warmth'.

I don't visit Head-fi much anymore tbh. I only visit it to keep my knowledge up on the latest headphone and earphone out / discovered by the Western market, and |joker|'s and ClieOS's reviews.

In sound, you cannot just look at the electrical engineering side of it, as sound is far more than that in the science world
post #374 of 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

Depends on the testing methodology as stated. For example, even though ABX tests are valid, the way it's conducted by most people makes their results invalid.
For example, any change of positioning of the head closer towards one speaker over another affects the HRTF and thus frequency response of what you are hearing. Same applies to the positioning of the headphone on the head or the insertion depth of the in-ear. All these are scitifically backed and easy to find for me. Not to mention dynamic range of the track. I'm not talking dynamic range of the medium it's on, but the track's dynamic range. Both entirely different things.
Output impedance in headphone outs are still a major problem in devices these days. This is due to a number of reasons, including 'pre-iPod / stuck in the 1980s' thinking that some electrical engineers still have at some major companies.
The difference in headphones is most obvious via frequency response graphs, but also other things such as impedance matching and HRTF factors.
Honestly don't underrate HRTF factors, particularly in headphones, where it affects the sound significantly, more so than speakers tbh.

Not sure what this is in response to.. I'm not arguing that headphones/speakers sound the same (they don't, and you're correct), I'm arguing that modern amplifiers and sources largely sound the same provided they surpass a relatively easily-accessible threshold.
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
post #375 of 5030
but the thing is you are ignoring a couple of things:

A lot of amps and sources are deliberately designed different and thus would sound different. Not to mention that the implementation of the source / amp extends to the output impedance of the headphone out for example.

See here:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

Not to mention anything with tubes introduces audible harmonic distortion.
See my post about the pursuit of realism vs. pursuit of lower distortion above.
post #376 of 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

but the thing is you are ignoring a couple of things:
A lot of amps and sources are deliberately designed different and thus would sound different. Not to mention that the implementation of the source / amp extends to the output impedance of the headphone out for example.
See here:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
Not to mention anything with tubes introduces audible harmonic distortion.
See my post about the pursuit of realism vs. pursuit of lower distortion above.

The first sentence is only insofar as certain amps and sources simply aren't designed well (e.g. tubes, audiophile tomfoolery, bass boosts and whatnot). The audible differences are nonetheless measurable -- we not only audibly hear the distortion introduced by tubes but we can also measure them using equipment.

I am not actually ignoring those things. If you look at my posts in this thread as an aggregate rather than just a couple of them you'll see the whole context.

I recommend taking a look at "Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics
are Acoustically Transparent" by David Rich and Peter Aczel, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053. It's a glimpse at how no-nonsense designs have reached affordable levels of sufficiency.. and this was over a decade ago!
Edited by friend'scatdied - 12/21/11 at 3:38pm
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
post #377 of 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

The first sentence is only insofar as certain amps and sources simply aren't designed well (e.g. tubes, audiophile tomfoolery, bass boosts and whatnot). The audible differences are nonetheless measurable -- we not only audibly hear the distortion introduced by tubes but we can also measure them using equipment.
I am not actually ignoring those things. If you look at my posts in this thread as an aggregate rather than just a couple of them you'll see the whole context.
I recommend taking a look at "Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics
are Acoustically Transparent" by David Rich and Peter Aczel, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053. It's a glimpse at how no-nonsense designs have reached affordable levels of sufficiency.. and this was over a decade ago!

I can't seem to edit this (Chrome or new OCN? I wonder) so I'll add in that yes, output impedance can be a symptom of bad design (as demonstrated by the FR changes you linked) and your reference to 80's design is on-point.
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
Audio E-peen
(24 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-5960X ASRock X99E-ITX/ac Unobtainium GPU 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB Corsair H100i Corsair SP120 High-Performance PWM x2 Noctua NF-F12 iPPC-2000 PWM x2 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NF-A9x14 Windows 10 Pro x64 Dell U2715H Logitech G710+ 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Silverstone SX600-G NCASE M1 v4 Logitech G700s eVGA GTX 590 Mouse Mat 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Schiit Yggdrasil Unobtainium Amplifier Unobtainium Headphones Cambridge Audio Azur 851A 
AudioAudioOther
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference Strada JH Audio JH13 Pro (Custom Silver Cables) Herman Miller Embody 
  hide details  
Reply
post #378 of 5030
"Controlled listening tests have consistently shown that electrical components will be audibly indistinguishable if the have: (1) flat frequency response, (2) noise and distortion levels below audible thresholds, (3) high input impedance and low output impedance [D. Clark 1982]"

3) is the big issue today and this differs vastly among devices.

That's not even factoring in other psychoacoustic factors and the computer science side of things either (e.g. software volume control implementation).
post #379 of 5030
Is spending thousands of dollars on headphone amps a waste of money considering they output less power than amps for loud speakers? Is the pursuit of audiophilia a never ending rabbit hole?
post #380 of 5030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post

Is spending thousands of dollars on headphone amps a waste of money considering they output less power than amps for loud speakers?

Headphone amps and speaker amps require different things and thus are designed differently but to sum up: Yes, as long as the amp provides enough power to sufficiently properly power the output (speakers, headphones etc..).

Different headphones and speakers require different amounts of power based on design however, so just because one headphone is being powered properly (such as a dynamic, 32-ohm headphone with high sensitivity) doesn't mean the amp would provide enough power for another differently designed headphone (e.g. planar driver headphone with high impedance and low sensitivity). Also a headphone amp's power can be too much for the output at times, which results in audible hissing.

The reason that the AKG K701 is so hard to drive despite being only 25ohm is because of it's low sensitivity.

Everything that's been discovered in sound has been discovered really since the early 90s. Implementing and refining those findings is another kettle of fish. the push is really now towards better efficiency in smaller, cheaper to make for the same quality, more power efficient etc.. devices.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sound Cards and Computer Audio
Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Sound Cards and Computer Audio › OCN's Most Recommended Audio Products