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[Ars] Why we've reached the end of the camera megapixel race - Page 4

post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post

Megapixels and dynamic range have NOTHING to do with each other.
Completely and 100% wrong, I am soo tried of arguing common facts with people that have faith of religion.

Tell me this, if you megapixels have nothing to do with dynamic range, why are we seeing 3x sensors coming out. For example.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1105/11...sd1preview.asp

Each photo site captures 3 colors, making a picture that is 15 megapixels x 3 colors.

Adding dynamic range by increasing the number of pixels in the picture. Swear to god, people just repeat marketing and dont really bother to read.
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post #32 of 40
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post #33 of 40
Megapixels only judge the resolution of the image, not the quality of it. So basically, the higher megapixels, the higher resolution the image, the more space it takes. And if it's a good photo, it will look good resized to something smaller.

But a crap quality camera with 8 megapixels will still give you a crap image.
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Completely and 100% wrong, I am soo tried of arguing common facts with people that have faith of religion.

Tell me this, if you megapixels have nothing to do with dynamic range, why are we seeing 3x sensors coming out. For example.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1105/11...sd1preview.asp

Each photo site captures 3 colors, making a picture that is 15 megapixels x 3 colors.

Adding dynamic range by increasing the number of pixels in the picture. Swear to god, people just repeat marketing and dont really bother to read.
Dynamic range is the variance in intensity values in a single image. It has ZERO dependence on the amount of pixels or how those pixels were captured.

This Sigma uses new sensor technology to capture BETTER pixels with more CLARITY, but certainly not HDR pixels by any means.

Only ways to generate images with more dynamic range with current technology is to either combine multiple exposures...the bigger the gaps, the better (1/4000 - 1/4 @ f5.6 ISO100 will give you basically the true dynamic range of the image even on a sunny afternoon day) or you render a 32bit image out of a 3D software package.

Megapixels has NOTHING to do with dynamic range. Color bit depth does.

Stop attempting to call out other people as being misinformed when you are the one that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Tell me this, if you megapixels have nothing to do with dynamic range, why are we seeing 3x sensors coming out. For example.
The reason you are seeing sensors like this is the same reason why RED has developed the Mysterium X sensor: 1) Reduce noise to produce clearer images and improve low light shooting, 2) Produce sharper images and lessen the amount an image has to be prefiltered and interpolated.

Neither sensor is capable of shooting in higher than 12-14bit depth. They improve image clarity and quality. Not dynamic range.

I work in feature film at a major VFX production company. There is a really damn good reason we need to go on set and shoot HDR images using multiple exposures from a DSLR; it's the only way to capture dynamic range for relighting our computer generated models. Even the footage from 14bit depth, $100K RED cameras will not suffice.

It. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Megapixels.
Edited by kweechy - 5/24/11 at 10:09am
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post #35 of 40
If not printing and not doing too much cropping, 2mp is enough.
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post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
Megapixels has NOTHING to do with dynamic range. Color bit depth does.
Color bit depth doesn't either. Bit depth only determines how many steps there are in between the minimum and maximum brightness levels captured, not what those levels are.
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post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
Color bit depth doesn't either. Bit depth only determines how many steps there are in between the minimum and maximum brightness levels captured, not what those levels are.
While this is true to an extent, you need to attain a threshold in terms of bit depth in order for an HDR image to not have unusable color banding.

You could try to pack a 32bit float image into an 8bit format and have the same amount of dynamic range, but it would be completely unusable. 16bit or half-float is the lowest acceptable bit depth for HDR images, though 32bit is more ideal.

So yes, in theory you could have the same dynamic range from an 8bit image as a 32bit image in terms of maximum absolute value and minimum absolute value...but it would be like putting in a staircase into a skyscraper, giving it 36 steps for the entire 36 floors and saying "hey, at least it's still a staircase".

Bit depth doesn't directly correlate to how much dynamic range is in an image, but you'd have to agree that it is the limiting factor for how usable it is.

That having been said, megapixels STILL doesn't correlate at all to the dynamic range of an image whatsoever.

8bit = 256 color depth
16bit = 16,536 color depth
32bit = 4.3 billion color depth

After a quick search online for some educational reading, I came across a good link for the uninformed: http://www.hdrsoft.com/resources/dri.html
Edited by kweechy - 5/24/11 at 11:32am
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post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
While this is true to an extent, you need to attain a threshold in terms of bit depth in order for an HDR image to not have unusable color banding.

You could try to pack a 32bit float image into an 8bit format and have the same amount of dynamic range, but it would be completely unusable. 16bit or half-float is the lowest acceptable bit depth for HDR images, though 32bit is more ideal.

So yes, in theory you could have the same dynamic range from an 8bit image as a 32bit image in terms of maximum absolute value and minimum absolute value...but it would be like putting in a staircase into a skyscraper, giving it 36 steps for the entire 36 floors and saying "hey, at least it's still a staircase".

Bit depth doesn't directly correlate to how much dynamic range is in an image, but you'd have to agree that it is the limiting factor for how usable it is.

That having been said, megapixels STILL doesn't correlate at all to the dynamic range of an image whatsoever.

8bit = 256 color depth
16bit = 16,536 color depth
32bit = 4.3 billion color depth

After a quick search online for some educational reading, I came across a good link for the uninformed: http://www.hdrsoft.com/resources/dri.html
You're absolutely right, except that you also have to take into account the color space though. Since you work at the professional level I assume you use AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, or some other wide gamut color space - both in the camera and throughout the workflow. In your case there's no question about it, 8bit images come out horrid. However, 8bit is plenty for sRGB no matter what the camera's dynamic range is (and every pocket camera I've ever seen uses sRGB since they're consumer oriented, and this IS a thread about pocket cameras ).

Also, there's a difference between the camera bit depth and the working bit depth. If you want to create a nice HDR for displaying it on the web, you can still shoot your images in 8-bit sRGB but then use a 10-bit workflow so that the HDR calculations can give more accurate results with none of that banding (and then convert it back to 8 bit only when you're done editing it).

By the way, do you know what another term for HDR is? Dynamic Range Compression . In other words, it doesn't actually increase the dynamic range of your photo, it just squeezes a wider range into a smaller one.
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post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
You're absolutely right, except that you also have to take into account the color space though. Since you work at the professional level I assume you use AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, or some other wide gamut color space - both in the camera and throughout the workflow. In your case there's no question about it, 8bit images come out horrid. However, 8bit is plenty for sRGB no matter what the camera's dynamic range is (and every pocket camera I've ever seen uses sRGB since they're consumer oriented, and this IS a thread about pocket cameras ).

Also, there's a difference between the camera bit depth and the working bit depth. If you want to create a nice HDR for displaying it on the web, you can still shoot your images in 8-bit sRGB but then use a 10-bit workflow so that the HDR calculations can give more accurate results with none of that banding (and then convert it back to 8 bit only when you're done editing it).

By the way, do you know what another term for HDR is? Dynamic Range Compression . In other words, it doesn't actually increase the dynamic range of your photo, it just squeezes a wider range into a smaller one.
I think the issue with REAL HDR images (ie: not an 8bit jpg that someone turns into a 32bit file yet contains no additional info) is that current monitor technology can only display a small slice of the available range at any given time.

It's kind of like that Carl Sagan flatlanders analogy where if you were to pass a sphere through a 2 dimensional being's world, it would first appear as a dot, then ever increasing circles that start getting smaller after a point and disappear again after shrinking to a dot once more.

I've heard it called Dynamic Range Compression before, but don't really understand where the name comes from or how it really makes sense.

For example, at the office, we render all files to 32bit floating point Open EXR formats. A monitor will display an intensity range of 0 to 1, but I'll have a depth pass for a scene with values upwards of 7,000...it all appears as white since that's all my screen can show, but the information is there and if I start grading it in Nuke or another high end compositing application, I can see it all.
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post #40 of 40
Just give me larger more affordable sensors already. I want digital 4x5.
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