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post #121 of 134
A SSD in NO WAY helps a GPU get better performance PERIOD.

You are confusing the way a game enigne and computer hardware works

Game is installed on HDD / SSD,

When game is run it is loaded in system RAM ( but it will not load every single file of that game )

Only the engine and its needed files to get to the main menu and a few extras, even when you start a map/save/campain it wont load ALL THE GAME at once, thats why there are load sequences because no game can FIT in its entirety in RAM and even if it could on some machines its not coded that way or else others who dont have the ram space cant play it at all.

Textures are compressed originaly to save space aa list / map of all the textures loaded in RAM is transfered to the GPU so whenever u look at a car / building / face / whatever the GPU will draw that texture on it and only then it loads the uncompresed texture in its VRAM ( video ram ) and it will keep it there if its often used

A SSD for games will only affect load times between maps / levels / saves / whatever when the engine will tell the RAM to load more data from the HDD / SSD, if all of the data is in the RAM you will not see a difference between HDD and SSD when gaming. AND there are games who are coded in such a way even if you have space to load more of it in the RAM it wont load and still use the HDD/SSD

The GPU never under any circumnstances "talks" directly to a HDD or SSD, only through system RAM if that ever happens in games. ( in folding or computing on the GPU it will comunicate with the storage but again only through system RAM )
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post #122 of 134
The point was that it is paging in and out of RAM because you're maxed out on VRAM with the 1.5GB for example. Freeing up space in your RAM sometimes requires moving data out into the page file. When you see short drops in frame rates, sometimes that is due to grabbing textures from the hard drive(which is sent to the RAM) which can cause stuttering when on disc drives for a second.
My example of it happening on Global Agenda every time you come across a new player is one where it affects total fps dramatically. And SSD would eliminate my problems with that.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 5/25/11 at 2:24am
post #123 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
The point was that it is paging in and out of RAM because you're maxed out on VRAM with the 1.5GB for example. Freeing up space in your RAM sometimes requires moving data out into the page file. When you see short drops in frame rates, sometimes that is due to grabbing textures from the hard drive(which is sent to the RAM) which can cause stuttering when on disc drives for a second.
My example of it happening on Global Agenda every time you come across a new player is one where is affects total fps dramatically. And SSD would eliminate my problems with that.
I am glad you explained this, I couldn't find the words.


I do understand and agree that the GPU never talks to the ssd or HDD, but once the video memory is used up the info comes from somewhere, and you can't argue that EVERY game or bench loads EVERYTHING into memory. It'll have to access the drives, use the page file, ect.


Are you saying that games don't use pagefiles? That they are restricted to memory? (system/GPU)?
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post #124 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by steadly2004 View Post
I am glad you explained this, I couldn't find the words.


I do understand and agree that the GPU never talks to the ssd or HDD, but once the video memory is used up the info comes from somewhere, and you can't argue that EVERY game or bench loads EVERYTHING into memory. It'll have to access the drives, use the page file, ect.


Are you saying that games don't use pagefiles? That they are restricted to memory? (system/GPU)?
Todays enthusiastic gamers, with multi-GPU setups (or dual GPU cards), will have a minimum of 4GB, while most likely much more (6 or 8 at least).

At this amount of computer RAM, games will rarely use page files, and 99% of the cases, you can disable page file completely (I don't use pagefile in my all my computers).

So using pagefile as an issue, is irrelevent to the problem of 1.5GB.
With 2 or 3GB on the cards, the texture files will be loaded to the system memory anyway.
The 1.5GB will just limit the amount of data the card can process at a certain time, as it will need to get more data once its done, and the time it waits to get more info, will cause the lower FPS.
Also it will limit the amount of textures the card can store in itself, so high changed textures games, will cause the card to back and forth more info, which again, lower the FPS.

So in short:
Pagefile has nothing to do with anything here.
Its just a useless argument people still have stuck in their armpit since the days most computers had just 1GB.



Mainly, AMD since the 58xx series cards, did the right thing and went for 2GB as base for their high performance cards, which turned out now, on the 69xx series, as best option.
It does waste some money for them, as 1080p gamers don't really need that 2GB, but its a good perk to have.
Hopefully nvidia will learn from this on their next series (but I doubt it).
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post #125 of 134
Disabling the pagefile can cause issues. The problem is most apps expect a page file to be in place. Apps don't know how much memory in total they will use so they exaggerate the amount needed and allocate way more than is necessary. Take explorer.exe for example. Look at the inactive memory usage for the process. It can sometimes allocate 500MB or more. Web browsers alone can allocate a couple gigs of memory. Having no page file means the graphics card won't be able to allocate as much space for itself because all the extra inactive memory of background processes wouldn't be moved off to the pagefile like it normally would.

You end up running out of memory and getting Windows popups warning you even when apps aren't actively using all the RAM. It's best to have a page file on a separate hard drive or an SSD. Even if you think you aren't going to ever max out your usage of RAM, some apps may occasionally have memory leaks which would cause your open apps to crash losing whatever you were working on as I have experienced first-hand. It's really not worth the risk.


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...de,2778-7.html.



Windows Vista for example would list total inactive memory in task manager making users think that they were using more than they were. Windows 7 changed the way they list memory usage in task manager.

Also, just because a card may have 2GB of VRAM doesn't mean it's going to use it any more than a card that has 1.5GB. Only if the game requires it due to the resolution and AA will it use more. You can have a 16GB 6970 and it's still only going to use 1870MB for a particular resolution and AA. BC2 at 1080P doesn't even use 1GB with 2xAA. So don't think that just because the 6970 has 2GB and the 580 has 1.5GB that it's going to pre-load more textures with the extra VRAM.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 5/25/11 at 3:01am
post #126 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
Disabling the pagefile can cause issues. The problem is most apps expect a page file to be in place. Apps don't know how much memory in total they will use so they exaggerate the amount needed and allocate way more than is necessary. Take explorer.exe for example. Look at the inactive memory usage for the process. It can sometimes allocate 500MB or more. Web browsers alone can allocate a couple gigs of memory. Having no page file means the graphics card won't be able to allocate as much space for itself because all the extra inactive memory of background processes wouldn't be moved off to the pagefile like it normally would.

You end up running out of memory and getting Windows popups warning you even when apps aren't actively using all the RAM. It's best to have a page file on a separate hard drive or an SSD. Even if you think you aren't going to ever max out your usage of RAM, some apps may occasionally have memory leaks which would cause your open apps to crash losing whatever you were working on as I have experienced first-hand. It's really not worth the risk.


Windows Vista for example would list total inactive memory in task manager making users think that they were using more than they were. Windows 7 changed the way they list memory usage in task manager.
I have been running without a swap file a bit over 2 years now (from vista).
I'm runing complex rendering programs, development and games.
I have never had a crash because of no swap file.
And 99% of every day users will not feel any need for it.

No sane user will run 6 parallel compression programs at the same time.
The tests you linked are way over the edge of normal or even professional users.

So saying "hey, you can't run 6 parallel compressions at the same time, so don't disable swap file" is I'm sorry, brain dead stupid to say.

Today with 4GB of memory and a 64-bit OS, you will rarely reach the limit, even with heavy games. Let alone with 8GB or 12 GB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
Also, just because a card may have 2GB of VRAM doesn't mean it's going to use it any more than a card that has 1.5GB. Only if the game requires it due to the resolution and AA will it use more. You can have a 16GB 6970 and it's still only going to use 1870MB for a particular resolution and AA. BC2 at 1080P doesn't even use 1GB with 2xAA. So don't think that just because the 6970 has 2GB and the 580 has 1.5GB that it's going to pre-load more textures with the extra VRAM.
I said the same, at 1080p.
But when compare 2560x1600 or surround vs eyefinity, thats where it matters.
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post #127 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
I have been running without a swap file a bit over 2 years now (from vista).
I'm runing complex rendering programs, development and games.
I have never had a crash because of no swap file.
And 99% of every day users will not feel any need for it.

No sane user will run 6 parallel compression programs at the same time.
The tests you linked are way over the edge of normal or even professional users.

So saying "hey, you can't run 6 parallel compressions at the same time, so don't disable swap file" is I'm sorry, brain dead stupid to say.

Today with 4GB of memory and a 64-bit OS, you will rarely reach the limit, even with heavy games. Let alone with 8GB or 12 GB.
In one of my systems with 8GB I've frequently had crashes with no page file due to apps with memory leaks. Took awhile to figure out what was causing it. Also when multi-boxing it would max out the RAM quite easily as each game client used up to 1.5GB each plus the background processes needing even more. Even something as small as a 100MB page file will save you from out of memory errors. Your typical use is far less than mine apparently.

And even if you have 24GB and have the page file disabled you'll still get micro-stuttering when the game needs to load textures from the hard disc drive as I mentioned in the Global Agenda "high detail characters" example with a Raptor 600GB. Not all games are as bad as that one though.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 5/25/11 at 8:07am
post #128 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
In one of my systems with 8GB I've frequently had crashes with no page file due to apps with memory leaks. Took awhile to figure out what was causing it. Also when multi-boxing it would max out the RAM quite easily as each game client used up to 1.5GB each plus the background processes needing even more. Even something as small as a 100MB page file will save you from out of memory errors. Your typical use is far less than mine apparently.
Well you are an exception, as rarely people are multi-boxing, or even running a game or a program which takes so much memory.
I used to multi-box WoW with 2 running games on a 6GB system with no swap-file on windows vista. No issues there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post
And even if you have 24GB and have the page file disabled you'll still get micro-stuttering when the game needs to load textures from the hard disc drive as I mentioned in the Global Agenda "high detail characters" example with a Raptor 600GB. Not all games are as bad as that one though.
I have no idea whats the relation to micro-stuttering.
It has absolutely nothing to do with anything on this topic, at all, nor with what you said.
Its something completely different, and has nothing to do with system or GPU memory.
What you described is just tons of small files and slow HDD (compared to SSD). Its just load time. Its not micro-stuttering.
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post #129 of 134
^ I believe he is talking about how textures are not loaded into ram yet. In wide open MMO's, it is difficult for the game to anticipate which textures to load from disk to memory beforehand.

There are not loading screens like FPS. Basically, some textures and other data are streamed to ram as you play in MMOs.
post #130 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I have no idea whats the relation to micro-stuttering.
It has absolutely nothing to do with anything on this topic, at all, nor with what you said.
Its something completely different, and has nothing to do with system or GPU memory.
What you described is just tons of small files and slow HDD (compared to SSD). Its just load time. Its not micro-stuttering.
Um, someone changed the subject by mentioning that the tests should of been done on a SSD. Someone else claimed that's pointless. I mentioned that some of the minimum frame rates due to micro-stuttering could be caused by the slow hard drive and here we are. Do you really think an SSD would have zero effect on the fps results?
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