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LED or 120Hz monitor ??? - Page 16

post #151 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I went from an LCD to an LED monitor and almost everything about it is better. It gets a lot brighter (as bright as my old CRT's), the colors are better and so on.
Yeah. In the lower end section it CAN (but won't always be) be an imprevement. However, in the high end, the IPS displays, the traditional backlight at max settings is TOO bright to comfortably view, so everyone keeps it at 50% max. How's LED gonna do any good there? It only messes up the colors. IPS panels will beat any TN panel, even with LED, to the ground. Would you ever have seen an IPS panel, you would know that the minimal benefits LED provides in some of the cases are inferior to the huge benefits of IPS. IPS users have said they will never go back to TN because TN looks like crap now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
Now this is interesting. So you're saying that even though plasma's have HDMI inputs, they will only accept a 60Hz signal?

Do you have any links to more information about the refresh rates of monitors/tv's; LCD, plasma, LED?
Yes. I'm unaware of any plasmas that would accept more than 60hz input. Besides, the bandwidth limitation of HDMI kicks in. It can't do more than 60hz on 1920x1080. At 720p, it might be able to do more, but the controller chips of the plasmas won't accept more than 60hz.
HDMI 1.4 could change this, since it supports higher, but it is still uncommon, and the control chips still won't accept more than 60hz.

I don't have any links for you to read now, but this is all valid information, though I don't blame you if you don't trust a random person like me online. Though, those articles are written by random people too.

You need dual link DVI or display port to do 120hz on 1920x1080, and only display port can do more than 120hz on 1920x1080.


Besides, use common sense. Movies and TV is 24FPS. If the 120hz was real 120hz, meaning it would just simply refresh once per 1/120 seconds, there would be no visual benefits in the picture, since the source material is still the same. Fake 120hz creates in between frames with all sorts of methods, so it's going to look smoother even though the source is only 24FPS. It might look good, it might look bad, depending on if the processing fails or not on the TV.
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post #152 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
Yeah. In the lower end section it CAN (but won't always be) be an imprevement. However, in the high end, the IPS displays, the traditional backlight at max settings is TOO bright to comfortably view, so everyone keeps it at 50% max. How's LED gonna do any good there? It only messes up the colors. IPS panels will beat any TN panel, even with LED, to the ground. Would you ever have seen an IPS panel, you would know that the minimal benefits LED provides in some of the cases are inferior to the huge benefits of IPS. IPS users have said they will never go back to TN because TN looks like crap now.





Yes. I'm unaware of any plasmas that would accept more than 60hz input. Besides, the bandwidth limitation of HDMI kicks in. It can't do more than 60hz on 1920x1080. At 720p, it might be able to do more, but the controller chips of the plasmas won't accept more than 60hz.
HDMI 1.4 could change this, since it supports higher, but it is still uncommon, and the control chips still won't accept more than 60hz.

I don't have any links for you to read now, but this is all valid information, though I don't blame you if you don't trust a random person like me online. Though, those articles are written by random people too.

You need dual link DVI or display port to do 120hz on 1920x1080, and only display port can do more than 120hz on 1920x1080.


Besides, use common sense. Movies and TV is 24FPS. If the 120hz was real 120hz, meaning it would just simply refresh once per 1/120 seconds, there would be no visual benefits in the picture, since the source material is still the same. Fake 120hz creates in between frames with all sorts of methods, so it's going to look smoother even though the source is only 24FPS. It might look good, it might look bad, depending on if the processing fails or not on the TV.
Its not that I dont believe you. I'm genuinely interested in more information about this. Next time I change monitors, I was hoping to get something that could, at least, display 120FPS. However, I wanted to go with a 42"+ TV. I was planning on plasma, but if they cant display more than 60FPS, no point in going thay route now.
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post #153 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
Its not that I dont believe you. I'm genuinely interested in more information about this. Next time I change monitors, I was hoping to get something that could, at least, display 120FPS. However, I wanted to go with a 42"+ TV. I was planning on plasma, but if they cant display more than 60FPS, no point in going thay route now.
Yeah, it's good to avoid falling for that one.

It's also not only that the 120hz TVs have fake 120hz, it's also that processing the fake 120hz takes time, and thus the TV will have major input lag. Very noticeable.

On the plasma side, I do not know if the advertised 240hz or 480hz or 600hz has any real effect. I just know that the controller chips can't accept more than 60hz input.
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post #154 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
Yeah, it's good to avoid falling for that one.

It's also not only that the 120hz TVs have fake 120hz, it's also that processing the fake 120hz takes time, and thus the TV will have major input lag. Very noticeable.

On the plasma side, I do not know if the advertised 240hz or 480hz or 600hz has any real effect. I just know that the controller chips can't accept more than 60hz input.
So where would one find out about which manufacturers/models actually have real refresh rates, or what their internal processors can handle?
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post #155 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
So where would one find out about which manufacturers/models actually have real refresh rates, or what their internal processors can handle?
I'm not aware of any TVs that have real 120hz, though I think that there might be some.

I suggest creating a thread about it. This one is getting derailed from the derail that it was derailed from.
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post #156 of 252
Thread Starter 
I have been on a trip for the last 3 days so i will go though all the comments now and see what posts we have got
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post #157 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madstrike View Post
I have a LG W2363D, its awesome for me(I like playing fps games), however if u plan on going eyefinity, i dont think this would be the best choice cuz of the round bit at the bottom it would make it awkward to put the monitors next to each other.... also if u want to go eyefinity with 3 120Hz monitors you will need a very powerful rig to keep the fps above 120 at the resolution with 3 monitors, so maybe you might want to get 3 IPS monitors for that.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooony View Post
no thats not mine. Couldnt see if it was LG. If the 3x monitors are at a angle one straight wont that close the gap?
I dont understand what you mean, please explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooony View Post
And. You can switch v sync of then just use triple buffering. The gpu will add a extra buffer going on giving the monitor enough time to display it. Input lag happens when vsync drop the frame rate half the refresh rate.
look at the panel details
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles...anel_parts.htm

Top 7 120hz monitors

Acer GN245HQ
Alienware OptX AW2310
Asus VG236H
LG Flatron W2363D
Acer GD245HQ
ViewSonic VX2268wm
Samsung SyncMaster 2233rz
Thanks for the list spoony i will have a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3chAdd1ct View Post
120hz for sure. Much better for games, especially if you got a powerful rig that gets around 100 fps.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooony View Post
Samsung Samsung SyncMaster 2233rz vs ViewSonic VX2268wm



Acer GN245HQ vs LG Flatron W2363D


Anyone want to see any others?
Thank you for the pictures spoony again lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by TG_bigboss View Post
yea after playing on 120hz Ive been amazed at how much better everything looks. I cant go back to a normal screen. you can do 3d if you want as well but even without 3d it still looks amazing. Now when i go shopping for a new tv soon im looking for a 120hz first
Thank you for your comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sircles View Post
depends on the game, in any source game, vsync @ 60hz is AWFUL. other games, less noticable. but 120hz just feels so smooth. i would def get it. its amazing. i had a friend watching me game and he was like "why does my computer looks so laggy?!" "120hz babeh"
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbles37 View Post
Me too, no way I could go for a 60Hz ever again at home. I have no interest in 3D but 120Hz is mandatory for me from now on.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post
nah bro if youc an get a 120hz monitor go for it, thats the shizzle

led or lcd it reaaaaaaly dont matter too much

though, todays LED's do seem to have, depending on the brand, a better pixel pitch = sharper image
I will try

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBrown.CA View Post
One thing to remember about LED-backlit LCD displays is that they consume much less power than CCFL LCDs (and plasmas). Probably not a huge factor for most OCN members but it did come into play for the gf and I when purchasing our TV about 8 months ago.

My folks just got a 1080P-capable 32" 120Hz LED-backlit LG TV for just over $500 (Costco FTW). I can definitely see the difference between 120Hz and 60Hz when watching their unit... So much so that I probably won't buy another 60Hz display in the future.
Cool, thanks and i know about LED lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
I'm not aware of any TVs that have real 120hz, though I think that there might be some.

I suggest creating a thread about it. This one is getting derailed from the derail that it was derailed from.
AGRTEED, what do you guys think the thread should be called??
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post #158 of 252
A ton of stuff to quoto here. So, here we go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
Yeah.. V-sync causes no noticeable input lag as long as you can maintain 60fps. My sig-rig has no noticeable lag what-so-ever. I've never used a more responsive machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
O Rly.

No, it doesn't. Do you really think I haven't tried with and without V-sync? There's no difference AT ALL except screen tearing without V-sync. Yay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
Then why does V-sync cause quite noticeable lag on my 3.6ghz E5200/5770 PC, but not this one?

Same ? to you, De-Zant.

Also, my mouse doesn't feel sluggish at all on BFBC2. At least, not on this machine.
Lets be clear here. You accept that some computers give or don't give you any kind of lag apparence...which means that feeling it or not depends on the subject. So, its obvious that some people feel it and some others don't: you may not feel your LCD to be laggy because you have used it for a ton of time (so do I), but I can tell you that if you were to use a CRT @85hz+ for a few weeks you would die a little as soon as you got back to LCD.

Why? Because a CRT has an awesome responsivity, that you didn't feel because you weren't used to its, thats all.

For me, vsync is a no-no no matter the fps I'm running: the lag it adds (be it a lot or little, doesn't matter) kills for me the playability. This is specially easy to spot if you are used to play FPS-like games: you feel that the game is not responsive, it "lags" behind your movements. But like I said this is a subjective thing, to feel it or not, but lag is added and if you doubt it you should really check the very deffinition of vsync to understand how it works. If you do so you will see that lag is inherent to the system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heret|c View Post
How is it possible for my lcd to be slower than crt by 30 ms when the entire response rate is 2 ms

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk
Because responsate has never ever ever ever been 2ms. LCD producers only state ONE response rate for ONE given colour transmission: this means that if you were to start at exactly that given colour and end on exactly that given colour you would have exactly that given response rate.

As it is, its obvious that they give you the better response rate, because all the other colour combinations (response rate changes depending on colour start and colour destination) have far worse transitios. It works like this because its very difficult to optimize all colour combinatios, and thats exactly why they created the morethan60hz technology (on TV's).

How does it work? At the beginning, they used interpolation, ie they processed the frame numer 1 and the numer 2 and created a number of frames componed with those two very frames. As it is, this system is as bad as it gets because you get blurry images and very weird stuff.

What do they do now? Instead of adding stuff, they now add black frames: when doing so, you can control the colour-origin (as it will always be black) and thus can optimize the colour transitions a lot, which means that the screen looks much better (less ghosting) and also looks more sharp (as light adjustments are more easily done), and better contrast, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooony View Post
does a LCD have input lag Yes. Is it responsible for all the input lag No

Most 60FPS games have a 66.67ms latency -
30FPS games have a minimum potential lag of 100ms, but many exceed this.
That's the game alone!

at 30FPS we get baseline performance of eight frames/133ms, but if the sdrops to 24FPS, there is a clear 12 frames/200ms delay between pulling the trigger, and and the character beginning the shotgun firing animation. That's 200ms plus the additional delay from your screen.

Some games have over 300ms delay plus the measily 50ms from the screen. So what everyone is doing they blame that 300 50 on the LCD!!
You gotta be kidding me. 66.67ms is a heck tone of input lag, I'm telling you. It would only happen in horribly coded games (console ports, hello) and in games that have vsync always switched on.

With a good CRT @ 120hz you can get a total response time of about ~30ms. With an LCD we are talking about a total of 51ms as average (with a not very fast screen).

Seriously, I have no idea where did you pull that idea of 300ms of input lag being created by the game itself because its a big pile of smelly s***. Fallout 3 has something like 70-80ms and that makes utterly garbage in playability therms, if you talk about doubling or even more then you would better throw your computer down the windows that play that rubbish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBrown.CA View Post
One thing to remember about LED-backlit LCD displays is that they consume much less power than CCFL LCDs (and plasmas). Probably not a huge factor for most OCN members but it did come into play for the gf and I when purchasing our TV about 8 months ago.

My folks just got a 1080P-capable 32" 120Hz LED-backlit LG TV for just over $500 (Costco FTW). I can definitely see the difference between 120Hz and 60Hz when watching their unit... So much so that I probably won't buy another 60Hz display in the future.
Its fake 120hz, logically. There is no way you can input more than 60hz to a display unless using a computer. As thats is very unlikely even, display makers don't bother to do such things. Movies run at 24fps and I don't see nobody complaining about how they work although obviously we can't compare movie-frames to computer frames as they are similar only in the name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post
is this for real?!

this whole 120hz, 240 hz and 600hz is completely horse shirt?

you mean to tell me that the Sony Bravia XBR46/55/65HX929 with motion flow 960 lol, 240hz panel doesnt even do anything?!
Yup. If we talk about a plasma even more so: plasma has virtually no response time (its like a CRT in that aspet), so all that hz is referred to internal processing, nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I went from an LCD to an LED monitor and almost everything about it is better. It gets a lot brighter (as bright as my old CRT's), the colors are better and so on.

Now this is interesting. So you're saying that even though plasma's have HDMI inputs, they will only accept a 60Hz signal?

Do you have any links to more information about the refresh rates of monitors/tv's; LCD, plasma, LED?
If you feel there is a difference between a CCFL and a LED monitor is because the panel type is better into the LED one, but nothing else. We don't have (that I know, on the cheap range of products) computer displays with full-dimming led (all the panel, basically) and, thus, its basically a gimmick.

Also, I don't think there are big studies about wether the LED lasts longer than the CCFL, because power consumption is not important for me, at least not when talking about the display.

And no, TV's don't accept anything higher than 60hz because there is nothing that can output them more than 60hz. Why bother? Why create something there is no need to, nor market for?

Ah! I almost forgot: forget about using your plasma for computer. Plasma screens get "burned" from static objects displayed, and with a computer you have all sorts of them: windows task bar, hud when playing, etc. Thats why plasma technology has not been ported to computer displays although its probably the highest quality panel you could ever get (if you can control the lighting conditions of the place in which you have the tv).

Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
Besides, use common sense. Movies and TV is 24FPS. If the 120hz was real 120hz, meaning it would just simply refresh once per 1/120 seconds, there would be no visual benefits in the picture, since the source material is still the same. Fake 120hz creates in between frames with all sorts of methods, so it's going to look smoother even though the source is only 24FPS. It might look good, it might look bad, depending on if the processing fails or not on the TV.
You are missing a very little yet important detail: if you run a movie @ 24fps on a 60hz display you have a problem: you have not even frames, as 60/24 != 2 nor 3. So, this means that some frames will be shown more times than others, which is an effect called (I believe) judder.

Now, where is the difference between 120hz displays, then? 120hz/24 = 5. Every single frame will be displayed 5 times, which means that all the movie will be as even as it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackOmega View Post
So where would one find out about which manufacturers/models actually have real refresh rates, or what their internal processors can handle?
You are looking on the wrong side of things. Just to be clear: no TV (unless there are a few counted exceptions, but I wouldn't bet money on them) outputs more than 60hz simply because there is no need for it. Also, TVs tend to do a lot of processing so they tend to have much more latency than a normal computer display, although this days TV's have plenty of options so you can decide wether you want gaming mode (should have not added latence due to processing), normal mode, etc.

But I repeat, forget about tv's with more than 60hz. Everything you read about frequency is either related to internal processing response or is related to interpolation-related technologies (adding blank frames, blending frames, etc), because there is nothing on the market except computers that run at anything higher than 60hz.
Edited by prava - 5/25/11 at 10:53am
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post #159 of 252
Time for some friendly discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post
Ah! I almost forgot: forget about using your plasma for computer. Plasma screens get "burned" from static objects displayed, and with a computer you have all sorts of them: windows task bar, hud when playing, etc. Thats why plasma technology has not been ported to computer displays although its probably the highest quality panel you could ever get (if you can control the lighting conditions of the place in which you have the tv).
I thought modern high end plasma displays would be vurnerable for the first 200-500 hours, and then be good to go without much danger of that? I mean, CRT monitors get burn in too, yet they can survive because you DO NOT leave static stuff open on the monitor. Screen savers were made for this purpose, for example, and their name implies that.

So why shouldn't one use a plasma as a display? There are many people on OCN as well who do that. However, there are good reasons aside from burn in that might be the cause. One of the worst things is the size / resolution ratio. Absolutely horrible. Text is too large to read comfortably and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post
You are missing a very little yet important detail: if you run a movie @ 24fps on a 60hz display you have a problem: you have not even frames, as 60/24 != 2 nor 3. So, this means that some frames will be shown more times than others, which is an effect called (I believe) judder.

Now, where is the difference between 120hz displays, then? 120hz/24 = 5. Every single frame will be displayed 5 times, which means that all the movie will be as even as it gets.
A 60hz display would technically get rid of that issue by running at 48hz. HOWEVER, aren't movies and TV shows either 24.7, 24.9, 25.3, or 29.3 FPS most of the time? From what I remember, the FPS should not be exactly 24FPS in movies. If it was, your thing could work. However, if it's not, then 120hz doesn't help here as much as you claim there, but of course it would reduce the issue by a degree.


And also, this part of the discussion is somewhat useless. While I know my original logic there was a hypothetical "real" 120hz TV running 24FPS movie, this has no significance IRL.

But I'd still like to know.
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post #160 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
I thought modern high end plasma displays would be vurnerable for the first 200-500 hours, and then be good to go without much danger of that? I mean, CRT monitors get burn in too, yet they can survive because you DO NOT leave static stuff open on the monitor. Screen savers were made for this purpose, for example, and their name implies that.

So why shouldn't one use a plasma as a display? There are many people on OCN as well who do that. However, there are good reasons aside from burn in that might be the cause. One of the worst things is the size / resolution ratio. Absolutely horrible. Text is too large to read comfortably and such.
Mmmm this subject is very questionable. I have read through countless discussiones about wether its bad or not and, in the end, there was not a deffinite answer.

The are ways to prevent the screen from burning in, and also ways to fix it once the damage is there...but keep in mind that you don't want static images for a long time. When gaming you have the HUD most of the time, ain't that static? In windows, you have plenty of static stuff as well, because I'm not talking about having the screen on for a hole afternoon, but rather those small things you don't think about but are there.

But, like I said, I didn't read any deffinitive answer regarding this burning in; and also asked some vendors and they honestly told me that for watching movies there is probably not a better display type, but for computer usage it would be better to forget about it due to static images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
A 60hz display would technically get rid of that issue by running at 48hz. HOWEVER, aren't movies and TV shows either 24.7, 24.9, 25.3, or 29.3 FPS most of the time? From what I remember, the FPS should not be exactly 24FPS in movies. If it was, your thing could work. However, if it's not, then 120hz doesn't help here as much as you claim there, but of course it would reduce the issue by a degree.

And also, this part of the discussion is somewhat useless. While I know my original logic there was a hypothetical "real" 120hz TV running 24FPS movie, this has no significance IRL.

But I'd still like to know.
Now that you mention it...I think movies are shooted at 23.9fps, but speed is probably ported to 24fps to make things easier.

Also, running 24fps movies on a 120hz display has its significance: if you own a 120hz computer display
Edited by prava - 5/25/11 at 11:21am
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