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[CNN] Why would-be engineers end up as English majors - Page 22

post #211 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldExclusive View Post
I wanted to do something easy like Graphic Design or CIT, but I remembered what a person said, "Don't go to school to peruse a hobby, go to school to pursue a career that will make a difference." I'm a Pharmacy Major soon to be UF and I will like to specialize in Medicinal Chemistry. Research for cancer and skin disorders are my main focuses. Now, I don't know how I'm going to achieve but if I keep going I'll eventually get there.
ITT can even be a "hobby" if you get the certifications. That is a very smart statement, don't go into something you can learn on your own.
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post #212 of 341
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Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Just to clarify that med students generally do take a lot of math.

http://bioeng.berkeley.edu/premedinfo.php

Code:

    1 year Math (Math 1A & 1B)
https://career.berkeley.edu/Medical/PrepPrereq.stm
That's actually not a lot of math. If I assume correctly, that's just nothing more than Calc I and II AKA 'AP Calculus BC'. Which isn't very hard.
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post #213 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFrost View Post
That is an interesting list. However, they only get their data from users on that site.

This list got their information from the Bureau of Labor: http://www.cnbc.com/id/30644766/High...ying_Jobs_2010

It looks like 13/20 jobs on this list are medical. It looks like if you want to go into sci/tech and make the most money forget engineering and go to med school.
Note that article is looking at careers and not degrees.

Also, that doctors graduate years after an engineering student with a B.S. This is probably why they do not show up on the other report.

While medical services is not exactly a STEM field, it is heavily and closely related with some overlap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
ITT can even be a "hobby" if you get the certifications. That is a very smart statement, don't go into something you can learn on your own.
Certs still aren't a diploma though. Having a diploma is often need to even get into the door....

(I've been looking at software engineering/development jobs recently and all basically require a BS.)
Edited by DuckieHo - 5/22/11 at 9:32pm
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post #214 of 341
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Originally Posted by videoman5 View Post
That's actually not a lot of math. If I assume correctly, that's just nothing more than Calc I and II AKA 'AP Calculus BC'. Which isn't very hard.
I believe Physics 1 is above Calc III, which technically isn't hard. Though unless going into Physics or something similar that's pretty intense math. [edit] Nope, but apparently Calc III isn't that hard. Physics I'm assuming requires Calc II though. You can't use AP credits, there is a chance that the AP classes aren't as hard as the college ones. [edit2] Apparently the hard stuff is Physics II and DE, though who takes that unless you are going into a huge physics related subject. The point of learning up to Physics is not that the math is "hard" but it's important to learning the logic behind it.
Edited by mushroomboy - 5/22/11 at 9:40pm
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post #215 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
ITT can even be a "hobby" if you get the certifications. That is a very smart statement, don't go into something you can learn on your own.
Exactly. If you can teach yourself and the career mainly requires experience, don't waste time in school for it. Get a position in the field and go to school for something else. Instead of IT or other computer sciences, go for Mechanical/Computer Engineering, Physics or Robotics etc. Take to another level, don't only apply Computer Tech on a low level, see how you can apply it to different parts of our industries to push innovation. Like the article says, pursue careers what will drive the economy and create jobs for others. You can still become a rich person if you invent/participate in the right tech.


Quote:
Originally Posted by videoman5 View Post
That's actually not a lot of math. If I assume correctly, that's just nothing more than Calc I and II AKA 'AP Calculus BC'. Which isn't very hard.
I have to take Pre-Cal w/ Trig, Cal I&II, Physics I&II w/ Cal, Analytical Geometry with Cal. This is on top of Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chem, Anatomy, Physiology and that's just for my AA in Pharmacy. Math intensity considerably increase from there in Pharmacy School. You can see how people could be attracted to the money that a Pharmacist makes but many of them would drop out before they even reach their core class work. It's much easier to go for Business Administration and graduate with a 2.8GPA in half the time. Science and math majors are fighting for a few spots in major Universities that require a ton of application docs and a 3.5GPA. It's tough but worth it.
Edited by WorldExclusive - 5/22/11 at 9:58pm
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post #216 of 341
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Originally Posted by WorldExclusive View Post

I have to take Pre-Cal w/ Trig, Cal I&II, Physics I&II w/ Cal, Analytical Geometry with Cal. This is on top of Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chem, Anatomy, Physiology and that's just for my AA in Pharmacy. Math intensity considerably increase from there in Pharmacy School. You can see how people could be attracted to the money that a Pharmacist makes but many of them would drop out before they even reach their core class work. It's much easier to go for Business Administration and graduate with a 2.8GPA in half the time. Science and math majors are fighting for a few spots in major Universities that require a ton of application docs and a 3.5GPA. It's tough but worth it.

I have to take this
(PDF WARNING)
Calc I,II,III were done in high school. So, really I didn't have to take much for the Math reqs.
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post #217 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
[paragraph edited out due to being worded poorly and too lazy to fix it.]

The best test would be for each of those people to be given random situations/problems to figure out. I'm pretty sure that the math based degrees would be very high on the list.
OK:
Look from 4:36 to 7:10. The person that came the closest had much less math experience than the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Though I believe a lot of the social sciences require you to take certain levels of math, so they would not only be smart in their field but have a rough background for Physics. This means they get the same logic/structure that the Physics major gets. That's what I mean by math based majors, they are derived from the logic principles behind math. My example above with medical students, they take 2 years of college level physics. Another math based major, because you need that reason and deduction to go through with your career.
That's a very vague categorization. You can say anything is anything like that. I could say math is just a form of art, which would then make this debate meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
That's interesting, because that's a very new study that suggest something incredibly off the wall. Way newer than your GRE scores, which isn't a percent over long periods of time but rather a few years. Fluctuations can happen and do, though I'd still trust SAT scores over that. Not only is it extremely accepted but it's harder.

This study is also very interesting because it could suggest that English might benefit from math! Not really surprising, everything can benefit from logic.

[edit2] OMG That study could even link previous engineers and math, they might learn it easier due to their mathematical background! Oh I love when something works out and I never intended it to. BAM!
SATs are taken in high school, where everyone essentially has had the same education. So that is simply saying smarter people have higher test scores. The GRE, on the other hand, is taken after a student has had further instruction in a more narrow field. If English is essentially the same as mathematics, as you say, then math majors should be able to use the same skills they have learned in their math classes for English, and perform as well if not better, but that is not the case.


You are trying to disprove years of research on intelligence...
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post #218 of 341
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Originally Posted by WorldExclusive View Post
I have to take Pre-Cal w/ Trig, Cal I&II, Physics I&II w/ Cal, Analytical Geometry with Cal. This is on top of Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chem, Anatomy, Physiology and that's just for my AA in Pharmacy. Math intensity considerably increase from there in Pharmacy School. You can see how people could be attracted to the money that a Pharmacist makes but many of them would drop out before they even reach their core class work. It's much easier to go for Business Administration and graduate with a 2.8GPA in half the time. Science and math majors are fighting for a few spots in major Universities that require a ton of application docs and a 3.5GPA. It's tough but worth it.
Why did you have to say that? Everything I learn makes me not want to go to school. =( I want to do bio/chem, that's NOT going to be fun now. ='( LOL
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post #219 of 341
Yea I'm looking into biochem as well. I talked with my bio and math teachers about the math requirements already (seeing I'm pulling an A in AP Bio but only a C+ in adv. pre calc). I figure I'll just tough it out through AP Calc and other math courses in college. Strangely, I enjoy doing the math in any subject except math itself. Maybe it's because of the units tacked on at the end of all the numbers...
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post #220 of 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldfig0 View Post
OK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TUkhwV7IQc
Look from 4:36 to 7:10. The person that came the closest had much less math experience than the others.

That's a very vague categorization. You can say anything is anything like that. I could say math is just a form of art, which would then make this debate meaningless.


SATs are taken in high school, where everyone essentially has had the same education. So that is simply saying smarter people have higher test scores. The GRE, on the other hand, is taken after a student has had further instruction in a more narrow field. If English is essentially the same as mathematics, as you say, then math majors should be able to use the same skills they have learned in their math classes for English, and perform as well if not better, but that is not the case.


You are trying to disprove years of research on intelligence...
First I'll cover the SAT vs GRE, apparently they are equal. Either way that's null as I'm going to explain some heavy psych theory that covers both.

That video is flawed. I've also read up on that psychologist and know his theory and beliefs on intelligence. As apt as they may be there are problems with this, as well as other things he doesn't talk about. The entire concept behind that isn't well explained, mainly because a lot of people won't understand how detailed and problematic it is. I'm going to try and explain my current ideas and theory behind it (with some known theory that has been well established, I'm not disproving him but expanding on how we get to those IQs).

When you get into skills, or learned abilities, they never explain exactly how the brain stores information. More to the point, they don't go to explain that when you learn certain information you essentially lose other information (slowly). Theoretically we all start as a blank slate, unless you have a disability or genetic anomaly (bad or good). So far so good?

At birth you rapidly start to process the world, this process is what starts to wire your brain. You have a natural tendency to wire the brain a certain way, that is all kids develop more or less equally with most subjects. We all learn to walk around the age 1, they believe (current theory) that this is a hardwired process. You learn to walk because your brain develops in a way that allows you to do so, as well as certain other cognitive abilities (language, perception, and concepts like object permanence all happen at certain "times"). This is all well documented and talked about as the current solid models for human development.

Now, after a certain amount of brain development we become fully self-aware and self-conscious. We also start with a base amount of brain space being used for certain motor skills. Yes, certain parts of the brain are dedicated to certain physical abilities. Taste, smell, Sight, touch, muscle control (fine and gross), things of that nature. In fact a HUGE portion of our brain is dedicated to our facial region alone. Just like a huge portion of a dog's brain is dedicated to their nose.

Here is where things get tricky and where his ideas get foggy. As you learn things in life they start to occupy brain space, literally. Though you don't exactly map out knowledge directly, you do it indirectly for a lot of things. Take the idea of a ball, what is a ball? Well first what are it's base components? It's a sphere, before that though it is a circle with shading/depth. Your brain will, from current research, map both a sphere and a circle under the same region. It likes to associate things if it can, creating ideas and concepts from separate regions. Even though it does that we have huge problems specializing in specific fields.

What does this mean? Well for starters Sturnburg believes that having huge athletic ability might mean your smart. Not really, it just means your brain was wired to use more of it's space towards moving your body. Essentially over years of training your brain becomes wired for physical ability. I don't believe that's being smart, your sacrificing intelligence for physical ability. Literally.

This also happens when you use mnemonic devices, they take up brain space just like everything else. A doctor having what seems like infinite knowledge in medical might actually be no more intelligent than an English major. Though his training in math would make that a poor example.

How about comparing an English major to a History major? Both are based heavily on memorizing facts, they both use up wasted brain space. We can all memorize something, or at least as previously stated we all start with equal ability to do so. That would be an equal comparison on the intelligence level of majors.

I keep saying we all start with the equal ability to do so, and this is true. Though everything you do starts to occupy your brain and wire it in a way that allows you to do those skills better. Even skills that don't require much thought or cognitive abilities. The idea that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, you can but... Everything you do starts to take away at your potential, it takes away from that blank slate and causes you to lose ability.

So when you start creating tests that measure "specific" talents or abilities you have an obvious bias. You are creating tests that will measure how well their brain is wired for those abilities. We need a test that can measure two things; Your ability to learn and your ability to solve equations. Problem: There are no tests that can do that in a single sitting, that is what your life is for.

This doesn't even cover the problems with "creative thinking" being intelligent. Or the idea that the artist has more intelligence than the mathematician. And unfortunately for you I was going to be an Art major, I've posted my art here before to show that I do know a bit about it. Art, the concept of drawing (painting, ect... ect..), isn't logic based but it is repetition (there are also new tricks to re-teach your self reality, that's something that we all can do though). The problem with art is it's a fine motor skill. Everyone has the ability to be an artist, there is NOBODY who can't. Just like earlier when I said it was mapped by the brain so is art. It's muscle memory in the form of fine motor control (opposed to gross). Everyone can train their body to do these activities. Outside of that Art itself is just expression, there is no right or wrong. Some people start with a higher natural ability, at least they have the ability to "create" things easier (though I could go into why that happens, again it goes back to your childhood and how you were raised).

http://www.hulu.com/watch/219255/ted...ty#s-p21-sr-i0

Creativity itself is thought to be something anyone can do, we all have an inner creator. So if you go off that than it's not a learned intelligence but an ability that is natural to everyone. You now have a huge hole in his theory, which has some sound concepts but is one of 3 major psych theories behind intelligence.

So, quick recap: if you go to physical attributes versus the educated you will have the person who's been an athlete their whole life win. If you go into problem solving, straight logistics, you have the math person. If you get into creativity/art, there is enough evidence to say that part of his theory has holes.

Ok ok, so what about english vs math? Who would win? Unless you had completely unknown variables in subjects that were new to both and equally tested them you'll never know. Any current IQ test will favor the math major, logic based thinking wins in solving problems. If you go into anything English related, grammar, linguistics, the english major wins. History is all mnemonic, there is no intelligence behind it. What's left?

What about Psychology? Same concept, once you get far enough into a major most of it is memorizing. That is why Doctors are taught as much as Physics, for problem solving.

If you were giving equal knowledge of the situation I would put my bet on the math major every time. [edit] Or equal access to knowledge, they could find and read books or articles that can aid them. I'm going to say the tougher problems will naturally favor logistics.

[edit: Going to bed so no edit edit edits I swear]
I want to go into Neuro Psychology, mainly I want to help map out how the brain physically wires in relation to cognitive thought. I literally want to know how the brain works, what affects it, how memory and intelligence are stored. What forms of intelligence favor the brain being wired in a way that aids learning new intelligence and so on. I believe that we haven't even touched the potential of the human brain, not even close. Until we can further map that we will have no idea what intelligence really is or how to create our children to become more intelligent. So this is really my subject, I LOVE to talk about this in all forms. [edit: I lied] I'll probably end up with a bio/chem major, or something close with Psych. If I get tired of schooling I might opt just for generic Med school and get a practitioners license for something.

[edit: Lied] Intelligence is what causes us to be smart, to cognitively process a problem. Memorizing facts just uses your brain for something anyone can do. We can all memorize, at least science says we can. Not all of us has the ability to solve certain problems; A is where we were (are) and C is where we are going (solution). To get there we need B, the problem is we have to create B. That's what all the hard sciences do, they solve the worlds problems by inventing the the link. ABC! Engineers, doctors, all the hard sciences are based off logic (math based/logic based). Anything else is a lesser degree, it's literally a lesser degree.

I am NOT saying they don't fulfill a function of society, they do. We need every major, they wouldn't be one if we didn't need it. We even need janitors, fast food workers, they fill a huge function in society. However the rated intelligence levels for those jobs are minimal.

“Scientists discover the world that exists; engineers create the world that never was.” -Theodore Von Karman (without both we would be equally lost)
Edited by mushroomboy - 5/22/11 at 11:43pm
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