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Calling all HVAC experts to help with a new chilled water project.[Now Window Unit] - Page 6

post #51 of 65
Thread Starter 
After drying all night I manually "stress" tested it and one side peeled away, so I just re-glued it.

I'm sure it's strong enough to hold water but I want to make sure. I'm going to put silicone over the glue and then most likely put a strap or two all the way around it to reinforce it a third time. I definitely don't want 5+ gallons of water spilling all over my carpet because it gave way.

I got 20 feet of 1/2ID tubing, 18 feet of cylindrical Rubatex, and a 3oz tube of dielectric grease. Now all I need to do is order my Dragon Skin and my EK Supreme HF block.

Hopefully the Rubatex will keep the cold in seeing as how it recommends a 1 inch wall for -29c. I got 3/8ID with a 1/2 wall.

The 1/2ID tubing fits in the 3/8ID Rubatex nice and snug by the way if you were wondering about the size difference. Rubatex is extremely... flexible.

Edit: Finished my box MORE. (Now with silicone!)



I don't trust the strength of my re-glue as you can see on the right it's quite bubbly looking. Gorilla Glue is terrible for filling gaps as it gets bubbly when it dries. I double sided the silicone and like I said before will probably be putting some form of constraint around the entire box.

I will also apply silver foil tape on all of the borders, what harm can it possibly do.

Edit2:

I placed the box in the unit, fits perfectly.


Now I have to re-solder the lines and recharge.
Edited by Khaotik55 - 5/27/11 at 5:27pm
post #52 of 65
Thread Starter 
I have a few questions that have come to my attention. I heard anti-freeze eats away at silicone.(what I'm using to seal the edges)

Do I have to scrape all this out and use something else, or is there an anti-freeze (or something that lowers freezing point) without eating away at the silicone?

Or will I just have to run above 0c. <-- >8(

Edit:

I probably should use some of this:
http://www.marinetex.com/marinetexepoxyputty.html

It specifically states it's waterproof and can be used underwater, my only concern is will it be eaten away or softened by antifreeze? Can someone research this for me as I am not familiar with chemical names.
Edited by Khaotik55 - 5/27/11 at 10:57pm
post #53 of 65
Thread Starter 
I went to a local Ace hardware store and got some marine-tex. No idea how it performs against anti-freeze or if it adheres to plexiglass but it's what I'm using regardless. There's no going back now!

I scraped, sliced, ripped, and tugged at all of the old gorilla/silicone until I had nothing but plexiglass again, then took 60 grit sandpaper and re sanded all of the edges in preparation for the marine-tex.

About 3 and a half hours of work later I got it all assembled and attached, just going to wait 24 hours for it to cure.

(eww I need to sweep.)
*I'm glad I did this anyway as the gorilla clue was a little too weak than I would have liked. It would have worked but I was uncomfortable knowing I could pull it apart as easily as I did.
Edited by Khaotik55 - 5/28/11 at 9:54pm
post #54 of 65
Thread Starter 
I figured I would start resizing the images for a little easier viewing.





One of the copper lines kinked a little bit but it's still open so that shouldn't cause an issue. I'll give you a cookie if you can find it.
And ignore the burnt wire, I didn't realize it was touching the copper when I was soldering. : p

Edit:
Running

(Water is yellow because it's straight from the well, no softener.)

Can someone tell me if the compressor temperature is ok as I can't exactly ask my father at the moment.

1. Charged unit with 78psi of Freon with 85f water in the tank.
2. Freon reached 25psi after it chilled the water to 42f. (15 minutes running time.)
3. Compressor is 127f at this point.
4. Turned it off for about 20 minutes.
5. Turned back on and charged unit even more so it read ~45psi (water was probably around 55f now.)
6. Compressor now runs at 107f but water is warmer at around 48f. (6 minutes running time.)

*This also concerns me because the pressure is most likely going to be insane once the water in the tank reaches room temperature again.

Update:
**I went outside just now (20 minutes after I turned the unit off) and the water temp reads 44f. I don't know how the water got colder just sitting there compared to when the unit was running but that doesn't sound right.

Maybe my infrared sensor's getting a bit flaky.

Edit2:

I did mah sum mathematatics.

My suction line temperature is around 31f (according to my flaky sensor )
I have about 44psi of refrigerant at the suction line and a water temperature of around 45f.
44psi on a PT chart means about 22f saturated temperature.

So with the useful info Caleal gave me before, you take the suction line temperature minus the saturated temperature and that's your superheat. As long as my superheat is above 0 I'm evaporating normally.

So 31-22=9. (Superheat of 9.) Which means I'm fully evaporating according to this formula which is a good sign.

Before when my psi was at 25 I was getting a superheat of around 28f. Now that's a hot superheat! (I think!)

1.What is the recommended superheat range, should I not go above a certain superheat? I also noticed the larger the superheat the hotter the compressor casing was.

2. Are there any other factors that I should consider besides superheat to make sure the compressor is taking in no liquid, or is the superheat all I need to worry about?

Edit3(One day later):
Put some fresh room temp water in there and ran it but this time circulating it with the pump. Ran for about 20-30 minutes and water got down to around 28f according to my sensor. 1. It didn't freeze because of circulation or 2. my sensor is off by quite a bit.

At first the compressor got way hotter than normal, around 140f. It gradually went back down to around 110 once the water got chilled.
Edited by Khaotik55 - 5/30/11 at 6:01pm
post #55 of 65
Thread Starter 
Can somebody tell me if this will work for a window unit?
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RAN...XG3?Pid=search

Old one:

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...ory_Code=DScar

They seem very similar, shape, function, etc. I'm wondering what it means by Full Load Amps (In relation to what I'm doing.)
Edited by Khaotik55 - 6/1/11 at 10:11pm
post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaotik55 View Post
1.What is the recommended superheat range, should I not go above a certain superheat? I also noticed the larger the superheat the hotter the compressor casing was.

2. Are there any other factors that I should consider besides superheat to make sure the compressor is taking in no liquid, or is the superheat all I need to worry about?
1) I'd shoot for 10-15ºF superheat once the water is chilled down into the desired temperature range.
Typically, you don't want more than about 20ºF superheat when the system is in its normal operating conditions.

If the system is "correctly" charge for its normal operating conditions, the superheat will be significantly higher than "normal" while it is first pulling the water temperature down.
It's known as a "hot pull down" in refrigeration, and in some cases, can cause the compressor to overheat, or even damage the compressor. Many refrigeration systems have special controls to assist with cooling the compressor, or limit the suction pressure, during hot pull downs.
I doubt your system will have that kind of issue though.

The reason the compressor shell is hotter when the superheat is higher is because suction superheat is multiplied by the compression ratio and becomes discharge superheat, and the pumping part of rotary compressors discharge into the shell.
There is other heat added, but it doesn't have as wide a range as discharge superheat.
Basically, if you have 10ºF suction superheat, and a 5:1 compression ratio, the discharge temperature will be 50ºF hotter than the saturated suction temperature + other heat input.
If the suction superheat is 20ºF at the same compression ratio, the discharge temperature will be 100ºF hotter than the saturated suction temperature + other heat inputs.

2)An old rule of thumb is that if the temperature of the discharge line off the compressor is >225ºF, you are cooking oil.

Make absolutely sure you don't freeze the water.

When the system is in normal operation, check the compressor amps and make sure they are not higher than the RLA listed on the compressor nameplate.

Ditch the non contact thermometer, it is nearly 100% useless for getting water, air or refrigerant line temperatures.
Edited by Caleal - 6/1/11 at 10:40pm
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post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaotik55 View Post
Can somebody tell me if this will work for a window unit?
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/RAN...XG3?Pid=search


They seem very similar, shape, function, etc. I'm wondering what it means by Full Load Amps (In relation to what I'm doing.)
That type of control will work, but probably not that specific one.

On your compressor, there should be a LRA (Locked Rotor Amps), and a RLA (Rated Load Amps) listed on the name plate.
On the fan motor there should be a FLA (Full Load Amps), or just Amps or "A" listed on the name plate.

Make sure the control has a higher LRA rating than the the compressor + (fan motor amps x 1.25), and a higher RLA rating than the compressor RLA + fan motor amps.
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post #58 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleal View Post
An old rule of thumb is that if the temperature of the discharge line off the compressor is >225ºF, you are cooking oil.
I don't think the line ever got hotter than 130F.

Make absolutely sure you don't freeze the water.
How come you say that? I know icing would be negative but I'm curious about the reasoning behind it.

When the system is in normal operation, check the compressor amps and make sure they are not higher than the RLA listed on the compressor nameplate.
Will do tomorrow.

Ditch the non contact thermometer, it is nearly 100% useless for getting water, air or refrigerant line temperatures.
I figured.

That type of control will work, but probably not that specific one.

On your compressor, there should be a LRA (Locked Rotor Amps), and a RLA (Rated Load Amps) listed on the name plate.
On the fan motor there should be a FLA (Full Load Amps), or just Amps or "A" listed on the name plate.

Make sure the control has a higher LRA rating than the the compressor + (fan motor amps x 1.25), and a higher RLA rating than the compressor RLA + fan motor amps.
Will also check tomorrow.
Thanks for all your continued help over the course of this project!!!

Edit:

http://www.bestbuyheatingandaircondi...tegory_Code=C2
The compressor. It states rated load amps @ 7.4. I looked on the sticker of my own and it says locked rotor amps ~44. It doesn't state FLA or RLA on the actual compressor so I'm assuming the RLA is 7.4 from that website.

I also looked on the thermostat or TCU itself and it states it's 25FLA 90LRA.

The fan motor just says A: 1.1. The model is 5KCP398E, but Google just fires blanks when you input the last two characters, 8 and E.

I'm assuming I need a TCU that is at least 15FLA and 60LRA. Or would it be ideal to just pick one up that has the same stats as the old one?

I'm having a hard time finding one that meets my needs and for under 60. Can I get some help?

I need something that has a low end of anything under 20f and a high end of anything over 50f. Has preferably 20FLA and 80LRA capabilities, and is under 60 dollars.
Edit2:
I found one that seems simple and has a HUGE range. I have no idea how it connects though or how it would work/be compatible with a A/C unit. From it's wording it seems like it would work.

Probably like 100 bucks though...
Edited by Khaotik55 - 6/2/11 at 4:27pm
post #59 of 65
Yeah, the controls that will handle the amps you need will not be cheap.

The good news is that there is a work around that is cheap, and will actually be more reliable.

You can get that $15 thermostat you linked first, and use it to control a contactor or switching relay. The contactor or switching relay will turn the compressor and fan motor on and off.
The best part is, a 30A contactor only costs a few bucks.

Assuming it is a 115v unit, the wiring would be very simple, but you need to make sure the contactor/relay has a 115v coil.
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post #60 of 65
Thread Starter 
I used a stop watch and took temperatures of various things at 1 minute intervals up to 20 minutes, then in 5 minute intervals.

NR: PSI:154 SLT:89 WT:86 CCT:121 DLT:115
1M: PSI:60 SLT:89 WT:83 CCT:121 DLT:120
2M: PSI:85 SLT:88 WT:80 CCT:131 DLT:120
3M: PSI:93 SLT:86 WT:75 CCT:142 DLT:125
4M: PSI:95 SLT:77 WT:71 CCT:150 DLT:130
5M: PSI:86 SLT:71 WT:67 CCT:154 DLT:135
6M: PSI:81 SLT:67 WT:63 CCT:155 DLT:131
7M: PSI:77 SLT:65 WT:60 CCT:153 DLT:131
8M: PSI:75 SLT:64 WT:58 CCT:148 DLT:129
9M: PSI:71 SLT:60 WT:55 CCT:143 DLT:129
10M: PSI:69 SLT:57 WT:52 CCT:139 DLT:125
11M: PSI:66 SLT:54 WT:50 CCT:135 DLT:122
12M: PSI:63 SLT:54 WT:48 CCT:131 DLT:120
13M: PSI:60 SLT:52 WT:45 CCT:128 DLT:118
14M: PSI:58 SLT:48 WT:44 CCT:125 DLT:116
15M: PSI:56 SLT:47 WT:42 CCT:122 DLT:111
16M: PSI:54 SLT:46 WT:40 CCT:120 DLT:112
17M: PSI:51 SLT:44 WT:39 CCT:118 DLT:110
18M: PSI:50 SLT:44 WT:39 CCT:117 DLT:110
19M: PSI:49 SLT:43 WT:37 CCT:115 DLT:109
20M: PSI:48 SLT:42 WT:34 CCT:114 DLT:108

25M: PSI:44 SLT:37 WT:33 CCT:111 DLT:105

30M: PSI:43 SLT:32 WT:32 CCT:111 DLT:106

35M: PSI:42 SLT:32 WT:32 CCT:112 DLT:106 CT:24

40M: PSI:41 SLT:31 WT:31 CCT:111 DLT:107 CT:22

NR: Not Running.
PSI: Pressure @ suction line.
SLT: Suction Line Temperature.
WT: Water Temperature.
CCT: Compressor Casing Temperature.
DLT: Discharge Line Temperature.
CT: Evaporator Coil Temperature.

As you can see near the end the coil temperature seems to be much lower than freezing yet my water gets locked at 31-32f.

I'm assuming it's because ice is forming in the coil and along the sides blocking water from flowing through it ie. blocking it from getting colder.

I have no anti-freeze so I'm going to add a bit of salt and rinse after I'm done so I don't corrode the hell out of the aluminum.

*Note: I used my non contact thermometer as I don't have anything else, it may or may not be inaccurate but at least it produced consistent results. So at least I have consistently inaccurate results.

Edit:
Added a total of 2 cups of salt which apparently isn't enough, but my coil went to 18f and my water dropped to 25f. So the freezing is definitely affecting it as I thought.
Edited by Khaotik55 - 6/3/11 at 2:53pm
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