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post #41 of 60
I played a Warrior in EQ1. A gnome warrior, at that. wink.gif

I loved it, it was a blank template. My bank was filled with random equipment that I would mix and match, and go try out different setups. I looked like a wadded up quilt someone forgot to throw in the laundry basket while I was sitting. I managed to pull off some awesome crap just because I was willing to try something other than full sets or min-maxing. Problems in EQ came when people started expecting you to play explicitly according to what was written in the guides online. That's what led to the rise of the kiting classes, which led to the summoning nerf, which basically meant that, once above 50, you had the choice of fighting to the death or... Fighting to the death. There is a reason the Project 1999 server exists. I could go on for pages about what changed after that and, more importantly, why it changed, but I think it's sufficient to say that the small minority of the player base who couldn't enjoy the game for a game, who felt that $10 a month entitled them to a capped character with perfect gear and a good guild that raided every other night, ruined it for those who enjoyed it for exactly that. A game.

I do make the mistake of referring to EQ as it existed and not as it exists now, but let's be honest. You're doing the same. Any comparison you're choosing to make with WoW is based off of the warm fuzzy feelings you have from it's earlier days, because WoW is just as much of a steaming pile of crap now as EQ is now. Popularity does that, because companies will happily sacrifice quality for subscriptions.

You're still missing the point though, just like players in EQ did after a few years. Raiding is not the End Game. It's just a minor attraction. It became everyone's focus because a majority of players didn't//don't possess the creativity or drive to do anything other than run on a treadmill. MMO's being a social game, the minority who understood how to make the game truly fun and enjoyable were forced to follow the herd, and subsequently became bored out of their frickin' minds and left.

Edit: And I'd like to point something else out, while we're on the subject(you know, what the thread was about? Don't look at me like I'm responsible for the derailment whistle.gif) All of this history that we're going through shows just how dramatically players' personality, playstyle, and expectations have changed over the last decade and a half. Humans being creatures of habit, everyone who considers themselves an "MMO Fan" is consistently disappointed when the next MMO lacks a basic component of the last one they played. Not important, or unique, or entertaining component, just a basic one. Since these basic components are all people as a group focus on, MMO's have slowly had all of the other components which flesh them out of a fully functional and enjoyable game culled from them over the years. Gamers are socially engineered by the games they play. Look at what happened with the Dishonored playtesters. Years of playing games with linear gameplay leads players to desire linear gameplay. The MMO treadmill is exactly this, a linear style of gameplay.
Edited by Ganf - 1/10/13 at 7:46pm
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post #42 of 60
I know it's a bit outside the subject, but would you really play a warrior from EQ1 over a warrior in WoW? I could compare it to paladins, where paladins could do way more, at the cost of doing a bit less damage on auto attack and having a bit less of tanking stats. When I talk about gameplay, I'm talking mostly about the fighting mechanics.

I don't think we're derailing the thread, we have look back at the past to find what is the "next gen" of mmos. Refering to EQ and WoW from the past isn't a mistake, they are things of the past and not contenders for being next gen now.

About "Raiding is not the End Game", well the problem is that it was the end game with not much to do outside. EQ1 was probably not the most innovative of the bunch pre-WoW. I'm not missing the point here, the problem is related to the problem of content and how it is "consumed". I don't think pre-WoW games solved it or people would play them instead of WoW. I think they had some great features but also tons of problems and shortcomings. WoW is the same, even though it was overall a much better game, it also has its problems and the same content problem.

The social aspect is an interesting aspect. It seem to trump every other aspects. It seem to be more important than having a good game. The game can be pretty bland and boring but people will play it just because they can socialize, if the game just provide a bit more than a chat window. Most memories of gamers from the older games are from the social aspect. I think there is a division here, there is a clan that want better gameplay and challenges and care a bit less about freedom, and there is a clan that want more social interactions, a good community and good times with friends and usually care more about freedom. Satisfying both clans is a big challenge, and they must do so for at least a dozen years.
post #43 of 60
I think the next generation MMO is a massive statement. The idea of what an MMO is supposed to be is very broad idea to begin with. It is not like saying the next generation FPS for example. FPS is a generally explanatory idea of what a FPS is. Everyone generally knows if they like FPS games or not. Everyone generally knows if they love to race, shoot, or pvp. When you start talking about all the different MMO's they are nothing alike really. The MMO's have gone different directions to appeal to different people. I think that is why you have the love/ hate relationship that you see here in this thread.

Unfortunately, I cannot comment on all the game play of all MMO's that have come out (who has that kind of time? lol). From what I have been reading over the years there are some key factors of every game that people really like and dislike. One fact is (regardless if you agree or not) WOW is the King of all MMO's to date. Blizzard has succeeded in pleasing more people world wide than any other MMO producer ever.

So the question is, what will it take to not only be World of Warcraft, but beat World of Warcraft?

AND

Can Blizzard be there own best competitor with Titan to beat WOW!?

Now IMO, there is a damn good question! Can Blizzard beat themselves? Can they replace WOW with something that there current customers will enjoy even more?


Personally, I think the next MMO needs is an environment that can altered by the user. For example: Minecraft+ WOW. So lets take the concepts and put them together. MMO with quest, dungeons, leveling, raids, pvp, gear, economy, land owners and guild owned land, building on your land, expanding your kingdom, buying/ selling land, conquering more land, and, and, and, etc................................

The next generation of MMO only needs imagination and a great team of programmers to make it work (fix all the bugs/ ban cheaters)!!!!

On another note....how about mature only servers?
Some number of years ago, I did tell a fellow gamer that I wished there was a more adult oriented game. He replied "well they do make adult games with XXX". LOL, I was like " no, I mean games that are for serious adult gamers that want to have fun, no kiddy drama allowed!"

Just my 2cents.gif


EDIT: Sitting here thinking about some more food for thought to make an awesome game, how about a game that has adjustable settings that allows people with a socket A computer and no graphics card to play but can stress an i7 with 4 gpu's? Now that would be something of the future wouldn't it?
Edited by Nick7269 - 1/11/13 at 2:50am
     
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post #44 of 60
Thread Starter 
Great comments guys!

I would like to address the whole "Titan" issue. I honestly think this is something that will be scrapped, like Ghost was. I cannot see Blizzard/Activision making a game to compete against its cash cow. Blizzard could let WoW run with minor updates and an expansion every two years and people will be happy.

I also think WoW spoiled people because they made the game too easy. From a money standpoint, making a game like WoW easy is a no brainer. From a hardcore fans standpoint, I like learning curves. That is what makes the game fun.

For me, and others can attest to this, EQ1, Kunark and Velious was probaby the most fun I had playing a MMO and I played them all...AO, AC, DAOC, AC2, SWG, tried WoW but could not get into it, Florensia, and a few others.

There is a reason why EQ1 has a private community with two servers, one with almost 1k people on it, playing vanilla Kunark. 500k people peak back in the late 90's early 2000's was incredible for a game when many people still did not have computers.

I found this about Everquest Next, and I hope what he says is true:

President of SOE, John Smedley, has let loose some snippets of information regarding the next EverQuest game, and how it’s going to redefine the MMORPG genre.

Smedley talked some big talk in an interview with PC Gamer, in which he emphasised the need for innovation in massively multiplayer RPGs.

Apparently, with EverQuest Next, the development team has already thrown out two prototypes because they weren’t doing enough differently. In other words, they were likely fairly heavily Warcraft-based – like many MMORPGs these days.

Smedley said: “The previous designs we had for the next Everquest were cookie-cutter, they were ‘me too’. We had some great, innovative things in there and they’d have been great games in themselves, but they wouldn’t have been enough to keep an audience. We’ve had people playing Everquest for 13 years and we kept that in our mind as the main goal when making Everquest Next.”

He added: “We’re not trying to make WOW2 or Everquest 2.5 – we’re making something that we think will define the next generation of MMOs.”


Do you think they can do something different while still making the game as addicting as EQ1 was?
Edited by Rust1d? - 1/11/13 at 5:25am
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post #45 of 60
I want single player difficulty in an online MMO.

I want a hard game. Progression can be included but don't make it so you can cheese out of true progression. I want lots of options and I want to feel as unique as I feel in the world as I sit here typing this. I am unique, and I want my character to possess unique qualities, traits and features.

That would be a next gen MMO for me.
     
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post #46 of 60
Thread Starter 
I think building your own house etc ala minecraft style would be a great addition. You can put up defenses, decorate etc. The game still needs to be hard and should have a penalty for dying (corpse run, xp loss etc). I always liked camping items and was a good time to sit around and get to know people.
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post #47 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlefort View Post

I know it's a bit outside the subject, but would you really play a warrior from EQ1 over a warrior in WoW? I could compare it to paladins, where paladins could do way more, at the cost of doing a bit less damage on auto attack and having a bit less of tanking stats. When I talk about gameplay, I'm talking mostly about the fighting mechanics.

I don't think we're derailing the thread, we have look back at the past to find what is the "next gen" of mmos. Refering to EQ and WoW from the past isn't a mistake, they are things of the past and not contenders for being next gen now.

About "Raiding is not the End Game", well the problem is that it was the end game with not much to do outside. EQ1 was probably not the most innovative of the bunch pre-WoW. I'm not missing the point here, the problem is related to the problem of content and how it is "consumed". I don't think pre-WoW games solved it or people would play them instead of WoW. I think they had some great features but also tons of problems and shortcomings. WoW is the same, even though it was overall a much better game, it also has its problems and the same content problem.

The social aspect is an interesting aspect. It seem to trump every other aspects. It seem to be more important than having a good game. The game can be pretty bland and boring but people will play it just because they can socialize, if the game just provide a bit more than a chat window. Most memories of gamers from the older games are from the social aspect. I think there is a division here, there is a clan that want better gameplay and challenges and care a bit less about freedom, and there is a clan that want more social interactions, a good community and good times with friends and usually care more about freedom. Satisfying both clans is a big challenge, and they must do so for at least a dozen years.

EQ Warrior over a WoW Warrior? Any day. EVERY day. EQ warriors took strategy. tongue.gif When you keep your bashing timed perfectly in a Raid so that it ends up reducing the damage everyone takes from AOE spells by 30-50%, your chest hair immediately increases by an equal amount. I used to have a shaman and cleric that I played with on a regular basis who were spot on with keeping my regeneration up, damage absorption up, and a full heal in the clutch in case of an emergency - if I had my timing right and they had their timing right, I could ride out 5 minute long fights under 25% HP and getting the resultant damge increase, absolutely splattering anything we pulled and turning groups twice our size green with envy. Even got reported for hacking a couple times because of some jelly newbs who thought it was completely impossible to do what we were doing. What is playing a Warrior in WoW other than button mashing? Eq Warriors were 90% calculation, 10% playstyle. If you weren't using your head playing a warrior you were just flat out bad and doing it wrong.

My point about the social aspect is that it was grossly simplified just as gameplay has been. The tools for social interaction may be much easier to use, but they don't have any versatility. What you can do with those tools is very limited, and having less to work with for social activities actually was more useful, since you didn't have a bunch of crap limiting you. Humans are social creatures, and we're pretty good at doing social things on our own without a middle-man. No video game social network is ever going to have the versatility of a couple well-organized and motivated people. Don't think I'm backtracking and saying less is more here though. I'm saying that current social tools like those in WoW are very limited in use, and get in the way of the creativity of the player in this area as well. And this is just my opinion, but if a person isn't willing to put forth the effort to turn their guild into what they envision, then they don't need to create it.

I apologize for any gross spelling or grammatical errors. I'm currently on a really old computer that literally cannot keep up with what I type. Spellchecking is impossible.
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post #48 of 60
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What do you guys think of Mr. Smedley's comments? Says they already scrapped two prototypes of the game already because it was the same old same old. Think EQ can bring back that old flame?
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post #49 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust1d? View Post

What do you guys think of Mr. Smedley's comments? Says they already scrapped two prototypes of the game already because it was the same old same old. Think EQ can bring back that old flame?

No. Because the majority of the problem is the player base. Supposing that they do make a good MMO out of it, it's going to die a quick death because nobody will be interested.
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post #50 of 60
I have to admire how the 2011 comments about GW2 on page 1 heralding it as the new innovation in MMO's draw a stark relief against reality now that the game has been released and is the same old formula verbatim, with even less reason to play it.

Disclaimer: I own and have extensively played GW2. Not hating on it, simply pointing out what is ostensibly true about it.
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