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post #51 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

EQ Warrior over a WoW Warrior? Any day. EVERY day. EQ warriors took strategy. tongue.gif When you keep your bashing timed perfectly in a Raid so that it ends up reducing the damage everyone takes from AOE spells by 30-50%, your chest hair immediately increases by an equal amount. I used to have a shaman and cleric that I played with on a regular basis who were spot on with keeping my regeneration up, damage absorption up, and a full heal in the clutch in case of an emergency - if I had my timing right and they had their timing right, I could ride out 5 minute long fights under 25% HP and getting the resultant damge increase, absolutely splattering anything we pulled and turning groups twice our size green with envy. Even got reported for hacking a couple times because of some jelly newbs who thought it was completely impossible to do what we were doing. What is playing a Warrior in WoW other than button mashing? Eq Warriors were 90% calculation, 10% playstyle. If you weren't using your head playing a warrior you were just flat out bad and doing it wrong.

EQ warrior took strategy? Not any more than pretty much any other game with a tank class, that is if you were tanking. EQ tanking was the most basic of tanking ever. What did you calculate? All you do is auto attack, taunt, occasional bash to interrupt spell casting and manage positioning(barely). If you're not tanking, you're just auto attacking, bashing and kicking does almost nothing but you do it anyways since you have nothing to do anyways. While in WoW, you have a wide array of useful skills and 3 different specializations and no, it's not just button mashing. You also have to manage positioning and aggro with more varied bosses mechanics. Again, I'm not saying WoW is the best. For example, TERA has much better tanking mechanics (and combat mechanics all around). However, no other game made me feel like a warrior as WoW, rampaging as an unstoppable killing machine bathing in rage. The gameplay hasn't been simplified, it went from very basic to much more engaging like in TERA.

I agree that current games, not limited to WoW, don't let the users express themselves all that much. I think MMOs being developed are aware of that and trying to enable this.
post #52 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlefort View Post

EQ warrior took strategy? Not any more than pretty much any other game with a tank class, that is if you were tanking. EQ tanking was the most basic of tanking ever. What did you calculate? All you do is auto attack, taunt, occasional bash to interrupt spell casting and manage positioning(barely). If you're not tanking, you're just auto attacking, bashing and kicking does almost nothing but you do it anyways since you have nothing to do anyways. While in WoW, you have a wide array of useful skills and 3 different specializations and no, it's not just button mashing. You also have to manage positioning and aggro with more varied bosses mechanics. Again, I'm not saying WoW is the best. For example, TERA has much better tanking mechanics (and combat mechanics all around). However, no other game made me feel like a warrior as WoW, rampaging as an unstoppable killing machine bathing in rage. The gameplay hasn't been simplified, it went from very basic to much more engaging like in TERA.

I agree that current games, not limited to WoW, don't let the users express themselves all that much. I think MMOs being developed are aware of that and trying to enable this.

I don't get how our impressions of EQ and WoW warriors can be perfect polar opposites. Managing position and aggro is just as important in EQ as WoW. Please remember that EQ had no way to calculate DPS, and with different groups you had different quality buffs. If you were pushing your limits as a warrior and not overgrinding until everything was a cakewalk, you had to read the battle spam pretty carefully and figure out what was going on to know if it was fight or flight. Often in the first 10 seconds. People forget that in the first few expansions of EQ, exploration and discovery was a real thing. You didn't have Wiki's posted laying out every detail of every zone all over the internet before the expansion was even out of Beta. I was one of the first people to set foot on the Plane of Mischeif on my server. Guess what I found? It wasn't even finished yet, the devs didn't think anyone would make it there before they released the patch for it. That's not exactly a good thing, but it goes to show how much stuff has changed.

If you were on an overpopulated server, sure spawn times were a pain. If you weren't on an overpopulated server? Your guild could camp some areas for weeks before somebody else showed up during your playtimes, and that would probably just be some random person or small group exploring and schlepping around.
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post #53 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Please remember that EQ had no way to calculate DPS, and with different groups you had different quality buffs. If you were pushing your limits as a warrior and not overgrinding until everything was a cakewalk, you had to read the battle spam pretty carefully and figure out what was going on to know if it was fight or flight. Often in the first 10 seconds.

That's not only the warrior's job, it's the whole group's job. It mostly depended on the mana of your healer(s), which you didn't see, they had to tell you. Like I said, it's the most basic form of fighting which you do in about any mmorpg. EQ was pure tank'n spank and hope it dies before you run out of resources. Unless you had to manage adds with CC, although still doable, you could tri box or more easily. I tri boxed a paladin, druid and a shaman. The game was that simple. I could go on on lame tactics like complete heal chains with necros and mages being mana batteries for the clerics.

I agree with the exploration and discovery part, I think the only solution today is to use randomized content (like minecraft), so that people simply can't just read a guide. I did like the world of EQ, it felt more like a world than a theme park.

I have no idea about EQ Next, I think we just don't have enough information right now.
post #54 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlefort View Post

That's not only the warrior's job, it's the whole group's job. It mostly depended on the mana of your healer(s), which you didn't see, they had to tell you. Like I said, it's the most basic form of fighting which you do in about any mmorpg. EQ was pure tank'n spank and hope it dies before you run out of resources. Unless you had to manage adds with CC, although still doable, you could tri box or more easily. I tri boxed a paladin, druid and a shaman. The game was that simple. I could go on on lame tactics like complete heal chains with necros and mages being mana batteries for the clerics.

I agree with the exploration and discovery part, I think the only solution today is to use randomized content (like minecraft), so that people simply can't just read a guide. I did like the world of EQ, it felt more like a world than a theme park.

I have no idea about EQ Next, I think we just don't have enough information right now.

You did have a bar for your group members' mana, actually, if you were using the right UI. One of the early expansions. Besides that, they weren't draining everything in the first few seconds of the fight (I hope, though it did happen sometimes). And like I said, if you overgrind, the game is a bore. If you stick with easy-mode tactics while doing so also, it'll drive you to suicide. If you actually take a risk and try something extraordinary, you'll actually feel a pulse in your body again. So many people were so scared of corpse retrieval and XP loss they didn't do anything but turtle. Hide behind the same tactics that anyone could understand and pull off, pull safe kills, and stop doing any damn thing if you happen to fall short a couple people due to disconnections or the time. And I actually think this was the biggest fault with the game, the risk outweighed the reward, so no one innovated on anything once they found something that worked.

Holy crap, I am now remembering the dozens of times that I jumped in a group and had one of these responses:

A: "Dude, I'm not going there, I died to a train there yesterday and it took me 3 hours to get my stuff back."

B: "But we don't have a Wizard or a Druid, let's just stay at the entrance."

C: "What do you mean stop healing you until you say so? Smite? No, I don't have that, it's useless."

Etc... So on, such forth, ad infinitum. A bunch of scary-berries with more excuses than grey matter. Sweet jeebus no wonder I repressed those memories, the MMO player-base really did lose their testicles after UO, it's just too morbid to think about.
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post #55 of 60
Gotta be careful in calling people having no balls. Not everyone have 3 hours just to get their corpse back. But they'll gladly take on challenges that don't waste their time.
post #56 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlefort View Post

Gotta be careful in calling people having no balls. Not everyone have 3 hours just to get their corpse back. But they'll gladly take on challenges that don't waste their time.

You only have to go on a corpse run if you screw up. tongue.gif
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post #57 of 60
Calm down with the no balls comments. A long corpse run pales in comparison to text games that came before, and had leveling-designs that were built around how many years it would take to reach max level.
post #58 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666lbs View Post

Calm down with the no balls comments. A long corpse run pales in comparison to text games that came before, and had leveling-designs that were built around how many years it would take to reach max level.

Don't get me started on the DeathTraps that were insta-death and destroyed all of your equipment.
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post #59 of 60
As a casual gamer, I'm happy with the way it is now and would be happy to continue playing with the current formula. I play wow casually and still get to raid two nights a week which for the most part is more than enough. Truth be told, I only have a limited amount of spare time and am happy I can experience much of wow and other games without having to spend hours churning/leveling. There will always be those hardcore gamers that have the 80 hours disposable time that want more, but I'd say they make up a minority of gamers?

[/2 cents]
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post #60 of 60
Thread Starter 
There HAS to be a penalty for dying. I agree that 3 hour corpse runs (dying in a naggy raid etc in EQ) was kind of dumb. I remember sitting at the zone line for 3 hours waiting for a monk/rogue to drag our bodies. this was back in the beginning before Kunark came out.

There needs to be a challenge but any game that is too harsh on death or too hard will not be appealing to the mainstream crowd like it once was.
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