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post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
While you are almost certainly correct that Falkentyne's CPU is drawing more than 130w (it's probably closer to 200, give or take 30) there is no general formula that will accurately give a CPU's power consumption/TDP. Any formula would need separate figures plugged in for each individual CPU.

I have several chips of the same model and stepping that have wildly different leakage, and this different power consumptions at the exact same speed and voltage.

One of my high leakage i7 950 pulled over 190w (measured on two separate boards with the on board current meter, and a DMM) at 3.9GHz with 1.25v. My lowest leakage 950 drew about 130w at identical settings.
Doesn't higher leakage = higher VID? If so, then that formula works.
post #152 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
Doesn't higher leakage = higher VID? If so, then that formula works.
Higher leakage chips almost always have lower default VIDs.

Lowest leakage, lowest power, and worst OCing, LGA-1366 chip I have defaulted to 1.29375v.

Highest leakage, highest power, hottest running, and best OCing Bloomfield I ever had defaulted to 1.175v.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
From this we can conclude that doing prime all day at anything above 130W power draw can cause degradation and above 170W WILL cause degradation.
I've run several 130w TDP LGA-1366 CPUs at well over 200w, nearly 24/7, for years with no signs of degradation. Some of these chips have thousands of hours of stress testing on them at load temps in the 80s or low 90s C.
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post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
Doesn't higher leakage = higher VID? If so, then that formula works.
Nope

Higher leakage= LOWER VID=cpu runs hotter at same vcore.

My low VID 2600k is over 5C hotter at the same voltage and mhz as my higher VID one.
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post #154 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Higher leakage chips almost always have lower default VIDs.

Lowest leakage, lowest power, and worst OCing, LGA-1366 chip I have defaulted to 1.29375v.

Highest leakage, highest power, hottest running, and best OCing Bloomfield I ever had defaulted to 1.175v.



I've run several 130w TDP LGA-1366 CPUs at well over 200w, nearly 24/7, for years with no signs of degradation. Some of these chips have thousands of hours of stress testing on them at load temps in the 80s or low 90s C.
1.175v overclocked to 1.25v and 3900MHz comes out to about 214W. 1366 CPU's have a 200W barrier as per Intel specification (1.375V max VID and 145A max ICC). Using processors 24/7 for gaming is different from running Prime 95 24/7. Prime95 will load the CPU above Intel's specification and thus may cause degradation over time. A couple hours of stress testing won't be enough to lead to degradation, as the earlier architecture seems to be more resilient to sustained load.

I'd like you to remember we're talking about two different architectures and what might work for one, won't work for the other.
post #155 of 171
Intelburn does not stress very hard compared to LinX or better yet prime95. It stresses all the cores for a brief period of time. prime95 remains the toughest stress test available. 3 hrs stresses the NB max. FYI.
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post #156 of 171
For my 2500k I recently purchased. It ran at 4.2ghz at 1.25v initially. 1 week later I needed 1.264v to make it stable prime95 10 hour+. Right now it will throw an error at 3 hour on core 3 and I have to add more voltage to keep it stable. I'm not sure if this is degradation like many mention and I never feed this CPU more than 1.28v. Idle temp is 30c, load is 63c.
Edited by marik123 - 6/2/11 at 9:52am
post #157 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureOC Jim View Post
Intelburn does not stress very hard compared to LinX or better yet prime95. It stresses all the cores for a brief period of time. prime95 remains the toughest stress test available. 3 hrs stresses the NB max. FYI.
Most people using IBT don't set it to use all the memory, & many forget to set the number of cores/threads using 4 core cpus with HT, so not always stressing at max.
Supposed to be harder with the new instruction set, although I tested without it & prime95 was a tougher test than LinX using all memory. With bloomfield if I finished 20 LinX passes with all mem it would sail through prime95, with sandy I passed LinX & failed prime95 pretty fast...
    
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post #158 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by marik123 View Post
For my 2500k I recently purchased. It ran at 4.2ghz at 1.25v initially. 1 week later I needed 1.264v to make it stable prime95 10 hour+. Right now it will throw an error at 3 hour on core 3 and I have to add more voltage to keep it stable. I'm not sure if this is degradation like many mention and I never feed this CPU more than 1.28v. Idle temp is 30c, load is 63c.
Yes it's degradation. But eventually it will stop needing such bumps. And yes it's degradation like many mention.
I explained this in the other thread just now.

Degradation to where you are actually damaging the processor is when it happens and keeps happening, without ever settling down, and that can happen at high voltages. You guys do have to remember that these cpu's were not guaranteed to run at 5 ghz or 4.5 ghz. They were guaranteed to run at 3.3-3.4 ghz +4 multipliers. So you can't really blame anything. You're running them out of specification, anyway. But don't worry about the processor, it won't do this forever, since your voltages aren't high. But losing the "bottom end" (Lowest voltages) on a high overclock is quite common. Bump it up to 1.3v and it should remain stable there for at least 6 months, and you should be far above the "Lower edge" area. A weird analogy is like cutting a cake ...if you cut it on the very edge, you're going to be less likely to get an even cut, as there simply isn't enough firm material and resistance on one side. Cut it further in, and you'll get an even cut. Cut it too far in and you wind up not getting what you wanted (too high vcore-possible permanent degradation again but you'll never notice this at lower overclocks).
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post #159 of 171
Electromigration is always occurring in modern CPUs (at least ones that aren't superconductors), thus degradation is always occurring.

Even an underclocked, undervolted, sub zero cooled CPU will eventually degrade and die. It may just take decades, or centuries, instead of weeks, months, or years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
1.175v overclocked to 1.25v and 3900MHz comes out to about 214W.
There is a huge amount of variability here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
1366 CPU's have a 200W barrier as per Intel specification (1.375V max VID and 145A max ICC).
You are forgetting the loadline, which is also part of Intel spec. 1.375VID at 145A is something like 1.2v * 145 as the loadline specifies a vdroop that is almost .2v at such high current.

Regardless, no consumer intel CPU has a TDP of more than 130w and I have never seen a stock CPU reach this, even in Linpack or Prime.

Also, so you cannot just multiply the top of the VID range by the top of the current range, because only the lowest VID chips will draw the most current, and high VID chips will draw far less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
Using processors 24/7 for gaming is different from running Prime 95 24/7. Prime95 will load the CPU above Intel's specification and thus may cause degradation over time. A couple hours of stress testing won't be enough to lead to degradation, as the earlier architecture seems to be more resilient to sustained load.
My first LGA-1366 chip has at least 4,000 hours of heavy stress testing (prime95 and LinX) on it, at well over 200w.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolonger View Post
I'd like you to remember we're talking about two different architectures and what might work for one, won't work for the other.
This is true, to an extent, but the same premises apply.
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post #160 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Electromigration is always occurring in modern CPUs (at least ones that aren't superconductors), thus degradation is always occurring.

Even an underclocked, undervolted, sub zero cooled CPU will eventually degrade and die. It may just take decades, or centuries, instead of weeks, months, or years.



There is a huge amount of variability here.



You are forgetting the loadline, which is also part of Intel spec. 1.375VID at 145A is something like 1.2v * 145 as the loadline specifies a vdroop that is almost .2v at such high current.

Regardless, no consumer intel CPU has a TDP of more than 130w and I have never seen a stock CPU reach this, even in Linpack or Prime.

Also, so you cannot just multiply the top of the VID range by the top of the current range, because only the lowest VID chips will draw the most current, and high VID chips will draw far less.



My first LGA-1366 chip has at least 4,000 hours of heavy stress testing (prime95 and LinX) on it, at well over 200w.



This is true, to an extent, but the same premises apply.
I'm willing to admit my logic can be flawed, but it does make sense, doesn't it? Intel makes those specifications for operation on the very limits so their processor's wont degrade within spec. You could have some flaws where processors die prematurely or take longer to die, but I believe the grand majority will follow what the datasheet says.

This is purely a theoretical calculation as I know in real life it doesn't quite work that way. I have no way of testing houndreds (or even a couple to be honest) processors to come to an experiment-based conclusion.

What I was trying to do is show SB users somewhat of a limit for safe overclocking if they want to make their chips last. It won't work 100% of the time, but I am confident it'll work for the grand majority of them.
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