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post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman23 View Post
Now you're changing the basis of the argument completely in an attempt to back out of the corner you've trapped yourself in.
No I'm not because from post one in this thread I have made my opinion quite clear that mental ability, not physical ability, is what I think makes a pro gamer. Mental superiority, not physical superiority. My debate (I do not argue, I like to act in a civilised manner) has been the same from post one, regardless of what aspect I tackle it from.

Quote:
As you can see, you clearly asserted that physical capabilities have no bearing on gaming skill.
I stated I don't think there is anything physically superior about them, and I also made my reasons quite clear. I stand by them.

Physically I can type keys on my keyboard just as fast a a Starcraft player. Physically I can move my mouse just as fast across a screen as a Starcraft player. Physically that doesn't make a Starcraft player any faster.

The co-ordination of where my hands actually go is up to my brains capability to be able to process information and send that information to my fingers faster than I can type/hands faster than I can place the cursor.

Mentally that is what makes a Starcraft player faster and better. The ability for one persons brain to work faster than anothers.

The other aspects I have brought up are still relevant, which you've clearly acknowledged. You can have a natural talent, but it doesn't make you physically better than anyone else, that just makes you more talented.
Edited by Lifeshield - 5/31/11 at 1:48pm
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post #52 of 67
To subsist on Cheetos and Red Bull you must have physical resilience far beyond that of a mere human.
    
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post #53 of 67
It's all about hand-eye coordination and reflexes.
    
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post #54 of 67
Professional gamers are like the terrain generator in MC.

It generates several chunks, packs them , and chooses which one fits better on each place.


Starcraft players know a lot of patterns, and mixing them up makes them innovate on strategies and beat their enemies.


WoW players need a lot of endurance. I can't physically withstand hours and hours of grinding without falling asleep. My record is 6 hrs (not in WoW) and I was as if I had ran a freaking marathon.



They have very skilled and organised brains. Physically superior is not the concept.
   
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post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshield View Post

Someone who has never picked up a control pad or keyboard and mouse in their life can train to be good with it. It has nothing to do with physical skill and everything to do with the will to succeed. If someone really wants to be good at something, and really trains hard enough to do it, they can.


Do you seriously think a pro gamer is that much different? Sure they may have a natural talent, much like a pro footballer may have a natural talent, that doesn't make them physically superior in any way,


I don't really see anything superior about this in a physical form.
Um. Yeah. I think your words speak for themselves.

Your quite wrong you know. No amount of physical training or mental conditioning will ever enable you to surpass someone else with equal training/conditioning when they possess an inherent affinity for the task at hand. Professional gamers as a whole cannot be pigeonholed so thoroughly. Nor can any group of athletes, performers etc. There is such a thing as natural talent though.

That's the explosive "N" word - natural. Because of the pseudo-science that has historically plagued research into human differences, assertions that biology predetermines or even significantly influences human behavior runs into a wall of political incorrectness.

And, ceteris paribus, someone with more natural ability will always win. For you to argue anything else is asinine.
    
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post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
Your quite wrong you know. No amount of physical training or mental conditioning will ever enable you to surpass someone else with equal training/conditioning when they possess an inherent affinity for the task at hand.
I'm quite wrong? Where did I ever actually state the ability to surpass?

I simply stated that someone with no talent is capable of training to a level where they can be talented. If they want to be good they can be. I never said anything about being "better" than someone who is naturally talented.

There's a pretty significant difference here.

Though I also would not rule out the possibility either.

Quote:
That's the explosive "N" word - natural. Because of the pseudo-science that has historically plagued research into human differences, assertions that biology predetermines or even significantly influences human behavior runs into a wall of political incorrectness.

And, ceteris paribus, someone with more natural ability will always win. For you to argue anything else is asinine.
Sorry I don't do latin (or whatever language you chose to use).

Not always will someone with more natural ability always win. They will just have a much much higher chance to at a more consistent level.

However regardless of that I am not debating natural ability.

I am debating whether that natural ability is mental ability or physical ability.

As you were...
Edited by Lifeshield - 5/31/11 at 2:28pm
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post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshield View Post
I'm quite wrong? Where did I ever actually state the ability to surpass?

I simply stated that someone with no talent is capable of training to a level where they can be talented. If they want to be good they can be. I never said anything about being "better" than someone who is naturally talented.

There's a pretty significant difference here.

Though I also would not rule out the possibility either.



Sorry I don't do latin (or whatever language you chose to use).

Not always will someone with more natural ability always win. They will just have a much much higher chance to.

However regardless of that I am not debating natural ability.

I am debating whether that natural ability is mental ability or physical ability.

As you were...
Yes, you are quite wrong. The very definition of surpass is to be superior, EXACTLY the question posed by this thread. Someone who is not naturally talented can train to a high level. But they can't become elite. If your theory was correct, any person with equally mental ability would be able to attain elite level. So a 90yr grandma with the mental ability of a youth with great hand eye coordination would be able to compete at the same level? I could have played basketball every waking moment of my entire life and I would never be as good as the top NBA players. Why? They have physical capabilities that are simply unattainable no matter how hard I trained.

Oh and you say you move your mouse as fast as a top Starcraft player, and strike keys just as quickly. You really believe that? Have you tested that? I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that is the case. Maybe if you mash your hand down on the keyboard and fling the mouse willy nilly you'd match their ability but then it would be completely irrelevant. I can throw a baseball 80mph but does that mean I can place it within an inch anywhere on the plate that I want? NO. There are levels of physical capability - in sports just as in gaming.

We already know that mental ability plays a part in gaming skill, that's obvious. But that's not the point of this thread. If you seriously think there is no physical ability involved in gaming you are completely delusional.
Edited by Iceman23 - 5/31/11 at 2:39pm
post #58 of 67
Professional gaming has very little to do with physical ability and almost everything to do with mental ability. This isn't a physical sport, where the bigger, more athletic dude gets the win. Typing and clicking is not a physically demanding activity - assuming that you have fully functional fingers and 20/20 eyesight, anybody can become just as good at Call of Duty or w/e as a so-called Professional. 90% of the skill is in knowing the game. An experienced gamer becomes adept at the control scheme of any given FPS in a matter of days - most of the work goes into learning the game: maps, weapons, techniques, exploits, tricks, etc.

Like Lifeshield, I too can type as fast as any Starcraft player. I can type over 140 WPM (that's max, not average*), so go ahead and say that I haven't physically mastered the keyboard, lol. The reason I'd get spanked at Starcraft isn't because my fingers can't fly to the correct keys in time, it's because they don't know what the correct keys are.

*edit
Edited by flyingsaucers - 5/31/11 at 2:53pm
post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman23 View Post
Yes, you are quite wrong.
No I'm not. Not in the context of his post. Or by the definitions I already set.

Quote:
The very definition of surpass is to be superior, EXACTLY the question posed by this thread.
Yes, and one gamers mental ability can surpass anothers mental ability, aswell as their own physical ability. As already established.

Quote:
Someone who is not naturally talented can train to a high level. But they can't become elite.
I don't think anyone can say this with 100% certainty.

But even if that was true natural talent does not equal physical talent, as already established.

Quote:
So a 90yr grandma with the mental ability of a youth with great hand eye coordination would be able to compete at the same level?
A 90 year old wouldn't be physically capable of going to the toilet unaided, nevermind competing in any type of event. She'd probably have a heart attack playing Bingo.

The analogy is flawed because the physical condition contributed by age wouldn't allow her to. Remember what I said earlier about keeping people in similar physical condition?

Quote:
I could have played basketball every waking moment of my entire life and I would never be as good as the top NBA players. Why? They have physical capabilities that are simply unattainable no matter how hard I trained.
Again you try and compare a sport, which requires physical fitness, & condition, aswell as completely different skillsets, to playing videogames. Videogames require mental fitness and condition, the exact opposite. They do not require you to be able to jump, run, or throw a ball.

Quote:
Oh and you say you move your mouse as fast as a top Starcraft player, and strike keys just as quickly. You really believe that? Have you tested that? I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that is the case. Maybe if you mash your hand down on the keyboard and fling the mouse willy nilly you'd match their ability but then it would be completely irrelevant. I can throw a baseball 80mph but does that mean I can place it within an inch anywhere on the plate that I want? NO. There are levels of physical capability - in sports just as in gaming.
You seriously didn't read a word that I posted in relation to this now did you?

Quote:
We already know that mental ability plays a part in gaming skill, that's obvious. But that's not the point of this thread. If you seriously think there is no physical ability involved in gaming you are completely delusional.
Ok, so by physical ability you mean flicking a mouse 1/4 of an inch and placing crosshairs perfectly, 100 APM, hand to eye co-ordination, etc.

I already covered this, read back further and read it properly. If you don't understand it then ask someone to help you.
Edited by Lifeshield - 5/31/11 at 2:59pm
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post #60 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingsaucers View Post
Professional gaming has very little to do with physical ability and almost everything to do with mental ability. This isn't a physical sport, where the bigger, more athletic dude gets the win. Typing and clicking is not a physically demanding activity - assuming that you have fully functional fingers and 20/20 eyesight, anybody can become just as good at Call of Duty or w/e as a so-called Professional. 90% of the skill is in knowing the game. An experienced gamer becomes adept at the control scheme of any given FPS in a matter of days - most of the work goes into learning the game: maps, weapons, techniques, exploits, tricks, etc.

Like Lifeshield, I too can type as fast as any Starcraft player. I can type over 140 WPM (that's max, not average*), so go ahead and say that I haven't physically mastered the keyboard, lol. The reason I'd get spanked at Starcraft isn't because my fingers can't fly to the correct keys in time, it's because they don't know what the correct keys are.

*edit
So you would deny that coordination plays no role in professional gaming?
Edited by Iceman23 - 5/31/11 at 2:59pm
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