Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › The Custom Watercooling Loop: An antiquated tragedy to be?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Custom Watercooling Loop: An antiquated tragedy to be? - Page 2

post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: Thing is, today's markets are all about not forgetting the cost. Every computer hardware site you look at is going to have articles about the best bang for the buck. If you refer to the general computer hardware consuming population, most will be looking for a better deal for great performance as opposed to a more expensive deal for slightly better performance. And while a well-constructed custom loop with the right components in the right case in the right environment may engender excellent results, chances are that not everyone will achieve the best results they can the first time around, and industrial tactics really primarily involve reeling in new people to expand the client base. With the options arising, the concept of going through with the work and expense of your own loop is less appealing, especially to those new customers who have so many options.

Full blown, traditional water cooling has never really been marketed towards "casual" computer enthusiasts. For most of the water coolers on this forum, it's a way to extend the performance and, consequently, lifetime of a part. Marketing water cooling to the average user is a terrible idea considering all that could go wrong. People who go water cooling look for it, and that's the way the market will stay. For example, compare to cars. Do companies like GReddy market their turbochargers to casual drivers? No. Do they even market them to casual tuners? Very little. They're looking for people who find joy in trying to suck every last bit of power they can out of their cars. And for these people, the parts will sell themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: Sure, custom watercooling loops are custom, but what next, should people start building their own waterblocks and engineering their own pumps to boot? At some point, customizable prospects marry rationality and takes a back seat in the relationship with the consumer. Plus, essentially, a custom PC is just that itself: custom. Being able to choose any cooler in general is custom. And, indeed, all of those possibilities you claim do not exist with air/self contained units do exist. There are big coolers, small coolers, loud coolers, quiet coolers, high performance coolers, low cost coolers, good looking coolers, and functional coolers that are not custom watercooling loops. They are air coolers and self-contained watercoolers.

That's like saying that for a custom air cooling system, we should be forging our own heatsinks. To go for a top of the line air cooled rig, you essentially have two options for your CPU heatsink. And, oddly enough, they look fairly similar. With water cooling parts, on the other hand, you have more options. The CPU block I was looking at, the Koolance CPU-370, looks nothing like any EK block. Yet, it offers fairly similar performance. And still, with the same exact parts, any water cooled system can look totally different, just by the user's preferences. Different colored liquids, different tube layouts, etc. With air coolers, they all look essentially the same. Those small customization options continue to pop up, and can create systems that look totally different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: Innovation: A new method, idea, product, etc. The act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new. Sure a new pump is new as in recently released, but is it new in the other sense of the word? New as truly innovative? As far as an outsider like me is concerned (and the rest of the target client base of custom watercooling) the new pump is just that; a pump. It will do the same job the old pump does. Contrary to what you state, however, it is easier to spot this innovation in the air cooling industry, and the self contained water cooling industry that became widespread just recently due to the efforts of Corsair is innovation in itself. We see temperatures constantly lowering in the air cooling sector, and new designs and ways to transfer the heat like separating a conventional heatsink into different areas and inventing new fans (see Noctuas proposition). While it is true that water cooling gets low temperatures if done right, are the temperatures really lowering? And is there such a great variation between waterblocks? From what I've heard, it really is just down to how you like the look of your block by now.

Is any air heatsink truly innovative? The last big "innovation" was the inclusion of heat pipes, if I remember correctly. Other than that, it's just attach more fins, put more fans. I honestly haven't seen any real innovation in the air cooling area since I joined the forums. To any of my friends who don't know anything about computers, all air coolers look the same. Big hunks of metal with fans that are supposed to be attached in some way, shape, or form. And, as far as I can tell, every year brings new products from the various water cooling parts manufacturers that out perform the year before... with the additional advantage that you don't need to completely replace your rig to use them. And again, customization options are way beyond the possibility of air cooling at the moment. If I buy a RASA kit and just put a couple drops of very cheap dye in the water, bam I have a color. Want a new color? Drain it, fill it, put another color dye in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: You just made a point yourself that I do not believe you have realized. Processors and graphics cards and motherboards that are high end are expensive (depending on the subjective parameters of finances). Those are the main parts of the system. Cooling is just meant to be a supplement. Yes, cooling can drastically change your system with great overclocks, but the basis of the performance is the system itself, so to any rational consumer, it makes more sense to focus the funds on the initial parts used to make up the system and less on convoluted (according to a nonwatercooler) cooling methods. And you also made the point that the vast majority of computer users (I am assuming builders as well) would not notice the difference in performance. Here is where rationality comes into play. I am not saying to listen to other people and not pursue your material fantasies, but people nowadays want the best for less. Most computer consumers, I am assuming, would save hours of hassle (again for a non experienced watercooler) and up to hundreds of dollars and be content with a couple degrees celsius over what they could have had.

Not everything comes down to money. Yes, it's a concern for most computer users, but an enthusiast is a different animal. Personally, I get attached to my computers. Parting with my old rig was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I loved it. Now, I'm transferring all that love and attention to my new rig. To me, that means I want it to perform the best it possibly can, without needlessly endangering its life. If that means I need to go water cooling (a pricey solution, but a solution nonetheless), then I'm all for it. Once I settle in to a configuration (likely involving a graphics card upgrade), I'm not going to change the base hardware. And that will become my computer's identity for the next 4-5 years. Are all users like this? No. Are all users just on OCN like this? Definitely not. But it's how I am, and it's why I do the things I do for my computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: I don't disagree with this point, but I will say that - if I can generalize here - most elementary computer builders are more concerned with cooling the CPU than the GPU. A popular perception of GPU watercooling, really, appears to be that it is no nearly as necessary as CPU cooling. This explains why there is no self-contained GPU coolers. Economically, it would not be a good move for any cooling company. The Omnic ALC is a good example of a daring move toward GPU cooling struck down, as you mentioned yourself.

Agreed. In explanation, I feel that CPU overclocking tends to have more potential towards tangible results. If I overclock my GPU, chances are, I can't do much. Even with a fairly decent aftermarket cooler. The biggest change I'll see is in games, and I've been cutting down on gaming a bit recently. On a CPU, especially an older one, there are tangible results to be had as requirements for basic computer functions go up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: I agree with you on this point. The watercooling game will definitely stick around. I do, however, from a purely industrial and consumer-focused standpoint, see its imminent decline unless it builds a mountain to climb on top of the plateau it seems to be traversing. With the rapid advancement of technology, a full-blown, custom watercooling loop is not the only way to get high performance, silence, and customizable capabilities.
Quote:

I don't see it declining at all. As a percentage of total, computer using population, I see it holding pretty steady. Back to my car analogy, there are always tuners. Since back before the heyday of the Mustang up until today, there has been a significant population there. Are all of them ready to shove a turbo in their tiny little 1.6L i4? No, but there's enough of a population for companies to always develop new products. Water cooling will never have the market penetration that traditional air cooling has, but there will always be a market for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: That is a possibility for 2012.

I honestly don't think we'll be seeing graphene quite that quickly. It takes years for companies to develop brand-new architecture like that. I'd say somewhere between 2015 and 2020 will be when we see consumer-oriented graphene chips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Rebuttal: Domestically, here in the U.S., that's not something we need to worry about, so I don't need to debate you on that. wink.gif

We're gonna have to worry about that pretty soon, looks like... Either way, the electric car will likely kill the traditional transmission, but there will always be motorheads looking to bring back the glory days and whatnot. Even if it becomes useless, I'd bet some people here on OCN will keep their water cooling going, just for the sake of tradition, memory, or even principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastMode;13730065 
Looking forward to some stimulating response!

I hope mine covered it, but this food coma's killing me frown.gif
post #12 of 13
I agree with what audioxbliss said. I also like the fact that he's a gearhead Furthermore (along the watercooling tangent), I see cooling solutions as clearly tiered. Despite all the minute innovations in the air-cooling field, water-cooling will still trump the best and phase change cooling will still trump water-cooling.

The principal demand of the market is always for value. People want the best they can get for the least amount of coin, and right now innovation and value seem to meet at the point where a pin matrix gets stamped into a small copper plate and sold for $40.

Looking at it from a design standpoint: To increase the surface area any further, additional copper content would need to be added which would drive the price of a single unit up, while not adding much to a heat exchanger that already has ruthlessly efficient iterations on the market. Of course, how well a waterblock cools depends on the other components of the loop as well.

Fortunately, there is so much variety already existing in the water-cooling marketplace (ample supply being the main reason I switched back to water-cooling recently) that any consumer with a bit of passion and ingenuity can put together a setup that cools the CPU to ambient temps with off-the-shelf parts.

Is it, therefore, safe or useful to innovate when a) the existing solutions are already adequate and b) R&D and material costs into a new solution would drive the cost per unit up? How can a more expensive, more efficient water block compete with the average Swiftech offering when you get only 5% more efficiency for 20% higher cost? Like you said, BeastMode, today's market is indeed focused highly on the performance-per-cost metric. If something doesn't measure up, it doesn't matter how innovative it is people will settle for the next best.

People who must have custom parts will do like every other fanatic and rent time on a CNC machine to get a part so that they can say with pride nobody else owns a copy of. It's a lot easier to fiddle around with an idiot-proof CAD program and send off for what you want flash-manufactured than it used to be! What the average enthusiast wants is the choice to choose from a variety of parts and determine where we want to budget for better parts and where the average for less will suffice.

In other words, we want the opportunity to innovate to be left up to us, which to me means an even more vibrant water-cooling market. Were that not true, I don't think we would see this section of OCN filled with people who know nothing of fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, or metallurgy coming with questions about what they can do to improve the efficiency of their setup, so that they can learn new things and take a crack at innovation themselves with the strong variety of products available to them.

In a nutshell, choice is what we ultimately want and that's what we're getting and I feel I've earned the right to say that as a Canadian, since most of the high-end water-cooling specialty shops manufacture in the U.S. or Europe and charge an arm, a leg and both testicles to ship here!
Black & Green
(12 items)
 
Dev Box
(7 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Core2 Duo E7400 Asus P5Q Hyper-X  Sandisk 
OSPower
Fedora 22 Thermaltake 650W 
  hide details  
Reply
Black & Green
(12 items)
 
Dev Box
(7 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Core2 Duo E7400 Asus P5Q Hyper-X  Sandisk 
OSPower
Fedora 22 Thermaltake 650W 
  hide details  
Reply
post #13 of 13
ill be honest, i took 1 look at that first post....then i was back at the water cooling index
Main rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel I5-3570K Asus P8Z77-V EVGA GTX 680 2GB 8GB Corsair Dominator 1600MHZ 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western digital caviar black 1TB EK Supreme HF copper, pmp400 + XSPC clear top,... Windows 7 64bit dell 23" LCD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 Corsair HX-850W Corsair 800D Logitech G500s 
Mouse PadAudio
Steel series QCK Logitech G35 
  hide details  
Reply
Main rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel I5-3570K Asus P8Z77-V EVGA GTX 680 2GB 8GB Corsair Dominator 1600MHZ 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western digital caviar black 1TB EK Supreme HF copper, pmp400 + XSPC clear top,... Windows 7 64bit dell 23" LCD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 Corsair HX-850W Corsair 800D Logitech G500s 
Mouse PadAudio
Steel series QCK Logitech G35 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Water Cooling
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › The Custom Watercooling Loop: An antiquated tragedy to be?