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Is Silver KillCoil = Snakeoil? - Page 2

post #11 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirectOverkill View Post
Then you should be safe. PHN is to be added to distilled, not CU.
I'd change distilled from time to time anyway. It's cheap way to maintain.
Well I usually change my water with every change of my GPUs, so every two months. I used to have a major flux problem, and thought it was my 240 rad, but it turned out to be my double heater core, which is now out of the loop since I took my GPUs out. Is there a way to get the flux out? I tried vinegar, but don't think it worked.
    
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post #12 of 52
I don't think many people know bare copper also has similar qualities. There are many studies showing the disinfecting benefits of brass or copper alloy touch surfaces.

And here we are covering up copper with nickell.

While I wouldn't recommend it..I have seen a lot of people run straight distilled with good success which I suspect is due to the copper antimicrobial qualities. I'm a distilled plus ptnuke user myself and have run loops for two years straight with it on copper blocks no problem.

I know silver works too..but I prefer copper sulfate addatives. I have never used silver...ptnuke has always served me well. Why change what works..
    
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post #13 of 52
You know I was reading the first post and I knew b4 I got to the EK bit it was coming. I think that it being anything to do with the fluid inside loop has been discussed in the other 2 threads covering the reasons why it's not the fluids
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post #14 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post
I've spent a few hours now searching and reading about silver, water, algae, corrosion etc. In essence, what I've found is:

3) Anodic index is only relevant for solid metal-to-metal contact, for instance like attaching a zinc anode to a boats propeller axle.

Nickel on copper is metallically connected. According to anodic index this represent no problem as the difference is only 0.35-0.30=0.05

When evaluating different metals in a closed waterloop the Electrode Potential should be used as this is should be seen as metals submersed in an electrolyte.

Look at the Electrode potential table, Silver on top at +0.8. Copper at +0.34. Nickel at -0.24. Silver to nickel is 1.04. Silver to copper 0.46. First goes the nickel, then copper.


Silver, solid or plated; monel metal. High nickel-copper alloys 0.15
Nickel, solid or plated, titanium an s alloys, Monel 0.30
Copper, solid or plated; low brasses or bronzes;0.35
Brass and bronzes 0.40

these are the values from your link.
Your reading that chart wrong:

The table below provides a generalize guide for predicting the anodic corrosion two dissimilar metals are prone to. The service environment also plays a role:

For harsh environments: outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments fall into this category. Typically there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the “Anodic Index”. For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable.
For normal environments: storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments. Typically there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the “Anodic Index”.
For controlled environments: where the temperature and humidity controlled, 0.50 V can be tolerated. Caution should be maintained when deciding for this application as humidity and temperature do vary from regions.

So where are u pulling nickle at -.24?

Silver to nickle is .15 and the max acceptable value is .25

Which is why i tell people to keep the silver 1 loop order away from the radiator. Or preferably inside the res, because you got S alloy inside a DDC chamber most of the time at the impeller.
Edited by NaeKuh - 6/12/11 at 2:08pm
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post #15 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
Silver coins have been used throughout history from Romans to Americans in wild west to effectively prevent water contamination and keep it potable as silver will inhibit both algae and bacteria, as will copper. In the more recent past, some have even scientifically measured silver ions in stagnant water from a silver coin, and after a few weeks silver ions were high enough concentration to inhibit bacteria and algae. I linked such a research paper on xtreme a while back, but unfortunately in their cleaning/modding craze, my posts are unreachable, and I dont feel like trying to find that paper again.
No problem, even if it's somewhat anecdotal evidence I believe what you say. However, I was referring to distilled water and I doubt they used that. Nor do I know what material the watercontainers were made of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
Nickel plating on new EK block, on one forum was found to have pores from nickel to copper, which is a known potential plating issue. Pores that allow direct nickel to copper contact under water, are going to corrode.
Not necessarily. It all depends on the coolant and what other materials you have in the loop.

To reiterate, Anodic Index is used for two different metals that are joined (welded soldered, plated, screwed together or just touching each other).

For two different metals that are not in contact with each other and submersed in a electrolyte (coolant) you should use the Electrode Potential. Silver is way up there.

Watercooling loops for computers and cars are much alike.

In a car the coolant will be channeled through various part of the engine and may encounter different kind of metals (iron, aluminum, magnesium, copper etc.) To prevent corrosion caused by the different electrode potentials these metals have, the coolant will have corrosion inhibitors. Always. If you read a cars manual you'll often find they have in fact outlined the importance of using a (approved) coolant and not just plain water no matter in what climate you use the car. It's not difficult to Google info about this. Here's a link.

For watercooled PCs, keep the radiator and replace the engine with a waterblock or two. The same rules apply, but instead of using a coolant with corrosion inhibitor you do the opposite, you use copper sulfate that makes the coolant conductive and just to be sure you add a piece of silver as well. If copper sulfate is good then adding a piece of silver too must be twice as good, is that how the thinking goes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
So, option 1) use Ek nickel plating, and use corrosion inhibitors, which invite other issues, and may or may not protect nickel plating over life of block.......
Option 3) Use a good corrosion inhibitor and it will last - and then some. If it's good enough for medical, scientific and industrial equipment it should be good enough for your PC (and yes, it's also effective against algae).
post #16 of 52
@ HPF..very nice ..can you explain this..i have KL 360 Nickel in the same loop as FC 580 Nickel (3 drops of PT Nuke),the KL block is in pristine condition after 12 months and EK block is flaking like b$$$ch after 4 months ! ???
EDIT; here is the bottom line ..people have been using silver/nickel plated blocks for some time now
with great success and no "corrosion".Silver/distilled is considered very safe by a lot of LC enthusiasts
there is just not enough to create battery
Edited by coolhandluke41 - 6/12/11 at 8:06pm
    
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post #17 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post
No problem, even if it's somewhat anecdotal evidence I believe what you say. However, I was referring to distilled water and I doubt they used that. Nor do I know what material the watercontainers were made of.
Makes me realize you did not even read EK's released report, even they said the level of silver was at the level of detection and that silver even at low concentrations is highly toxic to bacteria and algae. But honestly that is just common knowledge since Roman times, and backed up by modern science...you can even find susceptibility curves to ppm silver (and copper) to various stains of algae, since ionization is used from hospital purposes to swimming pools. Google it.

Quote:
Use a good corrosion inhibitor and it will last - and then some. If it's good enough for medical, scientific and industrial equipment it should be good enough for your PC (and yes, it's also effective against algae).
Perhaps you could explain how corrosion inhibitors solve the problem to the 3 people who used them (so far), and still had corrosion, read the other thread. One used feser one alone, which has 4 corrosion inhibitors in appropriate concentrations. Not so surprising given inhibitors work best by leaving a passivation layer on metal preventing soluble ions from interacting with metal...kind of defeats the purpose if direct metal to metal contact is already present via pores in nickel.

As for nickel not corroding with copper when in direct contact with water in our loops unless fluid is conductive...the block has crevices where corrosion is starting, as fluid stagnates there and quickly becomes conductive, so your basic, common knowledge point is irrelevant, unless your changing your fluid weekly to monthly. Kind of like arguing the romans didnt use distilled water, true, true and irrelevant.

There are people with older ek 8800 blocks, which were much better machined and probably plated that survived over a year with pt nuke/silver, etc. Not to mention other manufactures blocks.

Given people using appropriate corrosion inhibitors have still seen corrosion with EK blocks, I would take no comfort at all in using them, but to each his own.

If you read the report and believed it, there are some potential arguments for using inhibitors on EK products, just not any that you have made. But by far the best solution is using better, thicker plated nickel, preferentially with some type of hardening.
Edited by opt33 - 6/12/11 at 8:20pm
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post #18 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
Makes me realize you did not even read EK's released report, even they said the level of silver was at the level of detection and that silver even at low concentrations is highly toxic to bacteria and algae.
I don't think I ever commented on that at all.
post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post
The same rules apply, but instead of using a coolant with corrosion inhibitor you do the opposite, you use copper sulfate that makes the coolant conductive and just to be sure you add a piece of silver as well. If copper sulfate is good then adding a piece of silver too must be twice as good, is that how the thinking goes?
EK said copper sulfate additives like PTNuke were bad for their nickel plated water-blocks. You say copper sulfate is good for nickel plated water-blocks.

Which one of you is wrong?
Edited by Riou - 6/13/11 at 3:42am
post #20 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post
Seems like both Britney Spears and electrochemistry are out of your league.
start to lose the debate so revert to insults, I think you need to read the threads about EK blocks as every combination of fluids have been used and still the same effect nickle flaking (opps sorry eddy corroding), unless you can explain why it is only a recent event and predomanitly EK blocks the argument for the cause being silver or any other additive is a loosing one
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