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Great gpu temps, mediocre cpu temps? - Page 3

post #21 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomocity View Post
Also, you might want to change up your loop order. Your parts are fine. Instead of having your 360 go to your gpu, go pump/res > CPU > 240 > GPU > Pump/res. You should get much better cooling numbers that way. Having the 240 after your CPU seems almost pointless if it's just going back to the 360.
Because of the heat capacity of the water plus the speed at which the water travels through the loop, loop order for the most part does not matter, and would not likely improve his cooling in this situation.
post #22 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingamajig View Post
Yeah, i know what you mean. Care to explain, Petrol?
I've already explained that statement where I said rad efficiency depends on the relationship between the temperature of the liquid inside and the ambient air temps. Removing a rad will put more work on the remaining rad, and increasing the heat load will also serve to increase the difference between the temp of the coolant and ambient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33
I have gtx 295 (2 gpus) and core i7 OCed, probably similar heat load as you, and 1x360 rad and 1x280 rad, both with 1600 rpm fans. I have 10 calibrated dallas temp probes to measure intake ambients and water on crystalfonz 633 and record temps every second... During prime load (cpu 160 Watts loaded) with gpus idle (80W at idle), when I had just 1x360 rad (fans 1600rpms), intake ambients 24C, water temp 31.6C, ie 7.6C delta air to water, and cpu load temp was 75C. Adding in the 280 rad, cooled by same 1600rpms fans, dropped water temps to 29.9C, so dropped delta air to water to 4.9C, and dropped cpu temps to 72.5C. In other words, adding a little over 40% more cooling, predictably improved delta air to water by 40%. However, all rads and fans improve is the delta air to water, so for example if I added 2 more similar rads, at best I could shave the 4.9C in half, ie gain couple C more, so after couple large rads, reached diminishing returns. It is true about rad efficiency improving with heat load, but it is small, difficult to measure, and no way anything near negating another rad.

If I removed one rad, all I or you would accomplish is proportionately increasing delta air to water (back up ~40% on mine), or probably 2-3C or so (guessing your delta with gpus at idle, cpu at load is similar to mine), and thus increase water temps by 2-3C or so, which increase cpu temps by 2-3C.
Thanks for posting up some numbers, it's great to have something tangible to work with. First off, I take issue with your claim of 40% improved cooling since 29.9 degrees is about 95% of 31.6 and 72.5 is about 97% of 75. That's at most an improvement of 5%.

What delta air to water does indicate is a 40% improvement in overall rad performance, but considering you added 66.6% more rad to get that, a lot of potential is being lost.

Now, the fact remains rad efficiency is not the only variable in the big picture. Coolant flow is also a key variable, and the efficiency of the waterblock depends more on that than it does on rad efficiency. The point I have been trying to get at here is that Behemoth77 should try swapping to one rad and see how well it works for him. If removing that extra restriction from his loop allows for better flow, that could very well add up to the same 5% improvement that opt33 noted by adding a rad, but we won't know that until it's been tried because we don't have all the variables here necessary to make accurate calculations to assess the outcome.
Edited by Petrol - 6/17/11 at 9:31am
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post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrol View Post
Thanks for posting up some numbers, it's great to have something tangible to work with. First off, I take issue with your claim of 40% improved cooling since 29.9 degrees is about 95% of 31.6 and 72.5 is about 97% of 75. That's at most an improvement of 5%.

What delta air to water does indicate is a 40% improvement in overall rad performance, but considering you added 66.6% more rad to get that, a lot of potential is being lost.

Now, the fact remains rad efficiency is not the only variable in the big picture. Coolant flow is also a key variable, and the efficiency of the waterblock depends more on that than it does on rad efficiency. The point I have been trying to get at here is that Behemoth77 should try swapping to one rad and see how well it works for him. If removing that extra restriction from his loop allows for better flow, that could very well add up to the same 5% improvement that opt33 noted by adding a rad, but we won't know that until it's been tried because we don't have all the variables here necessary to make accurate calculations to assess the outcome.
Sigh, I may need to just apologize for blaming Shazza on all my posts missing....plus of xtreme is less repeating, the minus of xtreme is it is difficult to follow threads with half the posts missing...

But to answer your point, first need to agree on a couple things.

ambient = starting point = 24C.

delta air to water = dependent on fans/rad, ie that is the cooling component, my delta with 1 360 rad was 7.6C. Adding more rads/fans can only improve this 7.6C, hence calculating their effect on cooling efficiency by definition is only applied to this delta of 7.6C.

delta water to cpu = dependent on cpu (leakage, IHS die attach, settings, etc) + waterblock and tim/mount you use. = 75C-7.6C-24C = 43.4.

If you go back and read my post, I said ~40% improvement in delta air to water. Since by increasing/rad fans, it is only the delta air to water that is affected, calculating such efficiency is determined by ONLY the change in delta air to water. It is an error to apply rad changes to entire temp or anything OTHER than what it affects. 7.6C (360 rad)-4.9C(360+280) = 2.7C lower, 2.7/7.6 = 35.5%. So I was expecting roughly little over 40% improvement (that 40% explained below), only got 35.5%. (NOTE I used 120 fans with zip ties, so my 280 rad functioned more like 240) But not even that 5% difference is from rad efficiency, most of that is the lian li filters on 280 impeded air flow ~15-20%, the metal filters on 360 rad impede air flow ~10%, also blowing air in case adds another 20% in restriction, which may be uneven to some degree. And yes their may be a 1-2% efficiency loss, but it is too small to measure as it gets lost in other variables error.

Also "adding 66% more rad" as you say. Here is easy way to look at it.
If my delta air to water = 8C with 1 360 rad, then adding a second 360 rad (fan speed/filter/etc all being same), you would expect to cut that delta in half, ie 50% improvement in cooling to 4C, by adding "100% more rad", IF IGNORING changes in rad efficiency, other errors. In fact what you end up doing, is very close to that. If some of that error is rad efficiency, dont know, just too small for me to separate from other errors/variables.

In my example, delta was 7.6 with 360 rad. If adding 240 rad (mine was 280, but used 120 mm fans with zip ties to use same fans, so for arguments sake will call it 240 rad, not to mention have done same test on my last setup with swiftech 240 rad)...but since added 2 of now 5 total 120 rads, one would expect a 40% decline in temps by increasing the cooling area, maybe 42% since 140 rad, or maybe only 38% if adding in fact filters are little more restrictive on 120 rad.

I have done this in past with exact same filters, exact same fans, and with and without filters, posted on Xtreme long ago under RGE back when I had a 360 rad and a 240 rad, hence I know my metal filters cause ~10% hit in performance, and lian li filters ~?17% cant remember, but were little higher. And when I should have measured exactly 40% decrease in air to water delta temps, it was only about 37%, ? how much was my error, and ? how much increase in efficiency of rads, I just know at most rad efficiency is very small %.

To really measure increase in efficiency, you need higher wattage to increase the difference, to separate it from error. My guess is Martin has probably measured it before, but I had no interest.

As an aside, with cpu loaded and gpu idle, by having both rads in front of my cpu vs gpu in front of cpu, I get 0.2 C better temps. With requires 3-4 runs of doing both, just to be sure.
Edited by opt33 - 6/17/11 at 10:42am
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post #24 of 51
+1 to RGE up there... btw sup RGE this is Naekuh.


We really need to know what your water temp / ambient is.

Because of something called ambient being the lowest extreme to go, as you get close to this line, things get significantly more expensive, and harder to hold.


Also every cpu is YMMV.
Cuz your friend john has the exact same cpu as u do, bought it at the same place and time as you did, does not mean that cpu will heat up like john's to any sort of degree.
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post #25 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh View Post
+1 to RGE up there... btw sup RGE this is Naekuh.


We really need to know what your water temp / ambient is.

Because of something called ambient being the lowest extreme to go, as you get close to this line, things get significantly more expensive, and harder to hold.


Also every cpu is YMMV.
Cuz your friend john has the exact same cpu as u do, bought it at the same place and time as you did, does not mean that cpu will heat up like john's to any sort of degree.

Whats up Naekuh... speaking of someone with a cooling monstrosity that chases the 1C delta air to water .
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post #26 of 51
Well, not like it means anything but..for reference I have 2 rads (a 240 and a 360). The 360 is thick, while the 240 is thin. My GPU and CPU *always* stay within 5-10 deg C of one another. It sorta makes me feel warm inside -- weird, I know.

~~Laz
    
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post #27 of 51
lol...

OK guys its very difficult for anyone to tell you if something is correct or off without displaying Data.

We need at the very least what your water coolant temp is compared to the ambient @ the heat exchanger. And we need these values for both Idle... and Load...

Without at least those, trying to help someone diag is like trying to shoot at a rat inside a straw pile. No joke... we may get lucky, we may not.

And no.. u can not use dynamite.
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post #28 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazu View Post
Well, not like it means anything but..for reference I have 2 rads (a 240 and a 360). The 360 is thick, while the 240 is thin. My GPU and CPU *always* stay within 5-10 deg C of one another. It sorta makes me feel warm inside -- weird, I know.

~~Laz
What pump are you using?
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post #29 of 51
Hey OP can you do this:

OK temp diag time...

Do you have a thermometer? The kind where, when your sick, you put in your mouth?

I need you to put it inside your res in the water, and take a water temp.
Hold it there for about 30 seconds.... and record where its at.

After your done with that... dry the thermometer good...
Now put the themo near the intake of your fan @ radiator and leave it for 30 seconds and record.

Now... Load up your system on prime.
And repeat thermo reading after your system has done prime for 15 min to get equalibirum.
You have a small loop, so equalibirum shouldnt take too long.

Now come back with Data, and we can extrapolate what we think might be right, or wrong.
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post #30 of 51
Thread Starter 
Okay guys, I got the temps.

At idle:
Water temp 91.3f
Intake temp 92.2f

At full load:
Water temp 99.8f
Intake temp 100.0f
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