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Great gpu temps, mediocre cpu temps? - Page 5

post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
Not flames, just disagreement.

Below is a pic from Martin on Xtreme, where he measured just heat dissipated from rad vs flow. From 0.5 gpm to 4.0gpm, higher flow, slightly better heat dissipation by radiator. This does not even include the better temps from faster flow in waterblock in our loops.

Also, theoretically that argument of ideal/slow rad flow never made sense to me. Water transfers heat instantaneously at the molecular level, and thus water not yet reaching the rad will always be hotter with a larger potential gradient than water already in the rad. So the faster you push the water, the better you maintain the higher heat gradient from water to rad, hence the faster you cool the water. Maybe when we can push fluid faster than molecules can transfer vibration....just not very realistic today.

Edit: Not to mention the OP's problem is his high room ambients near 30C, and rad in back of computer so intake ambients probably at least 32C from heated air, and with his water temp 38C, if 6C delta air to water, doesnt leave much improvement room in radiator department.
Water may dissipate heat instantly but it doesn't dissipate all of the heat it's carrying instantly or why would you get better cooling with a larger radiator? I won't argue with you on this since I'm not an expert on PC cooling I can only tell you in real world situation for which "core" type radiators were designed, that if you move the water too fast through the radiator the coolant can't dissipate heat fast enough while it's in the only region where it's being adequately cooled (the radiator), so the overall average temp of the water throughout the system goes up. Now it may be that since we're talking about hugely different flow-rates and temperatures that this effect is negligible in PC water coolers.

Here's a good read, down about the middle they talk about the negative effect of coolant flowing too fast through the radiator. They tried with a thermostat to restrict flow and without and used a higher flow-rate pump too and in all cases the car ran hotter with higher flow-rates through the radiator. http://www.teae.org/cooling/cooling_article.html

Personally I think in PC's with lower temperature differentials and lower airflow capacity it makes this effect difficult to measure since we're only talking about a few degrees instead of 40 - 50*F in a car. This is because we're really not using radiators for what they were optimally designed for, and that is cooling liquid using high air flow-rates coupled with large temp differentials (ambient vs coolant), and adequate time in the radiator to dissipate the heat. A ~100cfm through a ~10" radiator scales to about 1000cfm through a car radiator which is well below what you get when driving and with an ambient of say 90* F when driving in summer and car coolant temps of ~185* you have about -95* F differential to use for cooling in a car vs. maybe 15* F in a PC. This is probably why water cooling is not a large improvement over top of the line air system in the case of overall temperature drops. Radiators are highly inefficient when used with low airflow and small temperature differentials as seen in PC... simple as that...
Edited by baj2k - 6/18/11 at 7:44pm
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post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by baj2k View Post
Water may dissipate heat instantly but it doesn't dissipate all of the heat it's carrying instantly or why would you get better cooling with a larger radiator? I won't argue with you on this since I'm not an expert on PC cooling I can only tell you in real world situation for which "core" type radiators were designed, that if you move the water too fast through the radiator the coolant can't dissipate heat fast enough while it's in the only region where it's being adequately cooled (the radiator), so the overall average temp of the water throughout the system goes up. Now it may be that since we're talking about hugely different flow-rates and temperatures that this effect is negligible in PC water coolers.
ummm... no...

1. Watercooling works on equalibirum... yes or no?
2. Equalbium means that the internal temp thoughout the loop will try to be constant... yes or no?
3. Having more flow in thermodynamics translates to more carry capacity of water... yes or no?
4. when having a system which involves equalibirum... dont you want more passes at a radiator ... ie more flow... so you get more molecules releasing heat?

Think of a pickup truck.. it goes to a cpu block.. picks up heat.... goes to the rad.. dumps heat...

Now if u lessen flow... dont you think your going lessen the rate it picks up and dumps?

Too much flow up to the point where u run into the max potential of the heat picked up on the block is also viewed as pointless.. is it better tho?? yes.. you will get .00000000001C better results... but it is BETTER results.

1.75gpm's is typically where u start seeing really close to nothing returns...
@ 1.75Gal / min... u have so much holding capacity on water already, any additional flow will be exponentially poor gain.

More flow also means the delta from your radiator's inlet and outlet will be smaller, and will most likely yield better temps.. but u probably wont see it, because its so TINY.

Average is around 1C.... very good systems have .5-.7C.... uber flow systems will probably have .3c...

so u netted a total of like .2C Woopie Doo, and it probably costed you 2x as much just for those .2C.
Edited by NaeKuh - 6/18/11 at 7:52pm
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post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh View Post
ummm... no...

1. Watercooling works on equalibirum... yes or no?
2. Equalbium means that the internal temp thoughout the loop will try to be constant... yes or no?
3. Having more flow in thermodynamics translates to more carry capacity of water... yes or no?
4. when having a system which involves equalibirum... dont you want more passes at a radiator ... ie more flow... so you get more molecules releasing heat?

Think of a pickup truck.. it goes to a cpu block.. picks up heat.... goes to the rad.. dumps heat...

Now if u lessen flow... dont you think your going lessen the rate it picks up and dumps?

Too much flow up to the point where u run into the max potential of the heat picked up on the block is also viewed as pointless.. is it better tho?? yes.. you will get .00000000001C better results... but it is BETTER results.

1.75gpm's is typically where u start seeing really close to nothing returns...
Ok then using your method if I take a can of warm beer and put it in and out of the refrgirator many many times really quickly it will get cold faster than if I just leave it in the frig longer in the first place?

1. Watercooling works on equalibirum... yes or no? No, it works on a battle between how much heat the fluid is carrying vs how fast it can dissipate that heat and by what method. Air, Water, DICE, etc.
2. Equalbium means that the internal temp thoughout the loop will try to be constant... yes or no? No, because you have two separate conflicting inputs. CPU heat will continue to try and may the water as hot as it can and the cooler will try and make it as cool as it can. Which ever is more effient at doing so will win. That's not equilibrium... that's compromise
3. Having more flow in thermodynamics translates to more carry capacity of water... yes or no? Carring capacity is not what matters since the fluid used is adequate at that task... the fluid will carry whatever the CPU block put into it... what really matters is what do we do with that heat. We're measuring the radiators ability to remove heat from a given liquid so heat disspation rate is what matters...
4. when having a system which involves equalibirum... dont you want more passes at a radiator ... ie more flow... so you get more molecules releasing heat? Yes, you'll get more, hotter, molecules running through too fast to adequately dissipate their heat before they exit.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you can diffuse 1* of heat for every 1 second you are in the radiator. If you take three seconds to flow through you lose 3* if you double the speed you go through at 1.5 seconds and lose 1.5* of heat but since you have to traverse the entire system to get back to the radiator you have to add that time, plus the fact that you added more heat going through the CPU block one more time so going through twice as fast would result in less heat loss.. correct? And don't give me the more molecules thing since the volume of fluid is constant so you have the same number of molecules in the system no matter how fast they flow. It's all about how fast they can dump their heat before you add more heat to them again on the round trip.
Edited by baj2k - 6/18/11 at 8:19pm
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post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by baj2k View Post

Here's a good read, down about the middle they talk about the negative effect of coolant flowing too fast through the radiator. They tried with a thermostat to restrict flow and without and used a higher flow-rate pump too and in all cases the car ran hotter with higher flow-rates through the radiator. http://www.teae.org/cooling/cooling_article.html
The thermostat on cars is to REDUCE cooling by impeding rad flow when the car engine is first started up and running cold, which allows car to reach normal operating temp faster, reducing engine wear, deposits and emissions. The thermostat opens/allowing flow to rad increase cooling, and closes to decrease cooling to keep engine running at peak temps. Straight out of any auto mechanic dictionary.

But yeah that site you linked obviously had some errors in both measurement and thinking.

As an aside if you go posting in auto forums with some knowledgeable members, "that thermostats slow the fluid down in a car to allow cooling in rad", they will quickly point out that myth as well.
Edited by opt33 - 6/18/11 at 8:32pm
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post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post
The thermostat on cars is to REDUCE cooling by reducing flow when the car engine is first started up and running cold, which allows car to reach normal operating temp faster, reducing engine wear, deposits and emissions. The thermostat opens/increases flow to increase cooling, and restricts flow to decrease cooling to keep engine running at peak temps. Straight out of any auto mechanic dictionary.

But yeah that site you linked obviously had some errors in both measurement and thinking.
Actually the thermostat has two fuctions one is to bypass cooling the car so it can heat up to it's optimal operating temp. quicker (most noticeable in cold weather climates). You ever try to drive a cold car? The gas doesn't properly atomize in the intake manifold so the car doesn't get the optimal air and gas mixture for proper firing. Cars will all heat up in 10 - 15 minutes even without a thermostat. It's just that most drivers what to turn the key and go... even in 10' of snow and 30* below...

The second, and pertinant to this discussion, is to restrict the flow so that the fluid stays in the radiator longer and flows at a higher pressure through the car so that you don't get air cavities that prevent coolant from reaching the far corners of the water jackets inside the motor.

You can argue that I don't know "jack" about PC's since I've only been building them since the PS/2 first came out. But cars... I think I may have the edge there, I've built, maintained, raced, customized them for more than 30 years. And yes not everyone agrees on the "thermostat" vs. "no thermostat" in the auto world either. What a shock 100% of people don't agree on someting on the internet... that almost never happens But car manufacturers all do. Removing the thermostat violates the warrenty. Why would that be if it were just there so the car would warm up and so the heater works...

p.s. I really like a spirited debate and I want to say thanks to you guys for listening to my points and disagreing with them using valid arguements of your own without calling me a dumba$$... that's truely refershing on the interweb these days...
Edited by baj2k - 6/18/11 at 8:41pm
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post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by baj2k View Post
The second, and pertinant to this discussion, is to restrict the flow so that the fluid stays in the radiator longer and flows at a higher pressure through the car so that you don't get air cavities that prevent coolant from reaching the far corners of the water jackets inside the motor.
It is debated on both computer and auto forums, not so much on computer forums anymore as it has been measured in detail and put to rest. It is an old debate, but always comes back up. And yeah, just have to agree to disagree. To me, it violates physics and logically impossible to cool more with just less flow.

But post up your comment on an auto forum, and you will start a longer debate than this one.
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post #47 of 51
oh man.. would u like me to pull the equation which shows how much heat is required to raise water moving at X gal per minute?

Its a fundamental thermodynamic equation.

The more flow you have, the better, up to a certain point, where ur returns become increasingly smaller and smaller and smaller as you get to a break point in where u lose efficiency on a item inside the closed up.
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post #48 of 51
You do know your running the rs rads they are smaller and you might be at limits of how much heat they can transfer but really sounds like a bad cpu block mount. I know with my rasa i had to try a few times to get it perfect and also my block came from rasa with junk in it i had to clean out.
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post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh View Post
oh man.. would u like me to pull the equation which shows how much heat is required to raise water moving at X gal per minute?

Its a fundamental thermodynamic equation.

The more flow you have, the better, up to a certain point, where ur returns become increasingly smaller and smaller and smaller as you get to a break point in where u lose efficiency on a item inside the closed up.
We're arguing two seperate ends of the issues. Your right and wrong. The more fluid you move past an object that is producing heat the more heat you will remove from that object provided you have a differential in temp with the moving fluid being cooler than the heat source.

So, now we've removed the heat... now what... this is the part you're overlooking. We have to get rid of that heat or eventually the heat being produced will be the same as the heat of the fluid in which case you can run it by at the CPU at the speed of light and it won't reduce the temp one bit. You need to consider the other end of the problem too.

Since this is a closed loop cooling system we need maintain that differential or it doesn't work. That's what the Rad does. So now we discuss how to make the Rad acheive optimal heat dissipation... that is simple; the longer the fluid is in a radiator the cooler it will get until it reaches ambient temp where it will go no lower.

So the fine line is fast enough past the CPU to get good heat reduction and slow enough through the rad to dissipate enough of that gained heat. We need optimize the amount of time in the radiator to keep the differntial as high as possible so when we enter the CPU block we can grab more heat. It's a balance... as fast as possible is just as bad as too slow... it's somewhere in between. Apperntly since the use of a rad on PC is highly inefficient it may be that they work better with a higher flow and a lower heat differential than lower flow with a higher heat differntial in PC's. That because as I stated before rad's were designed for high ambient temp differntials to work efficiently. Not the pidly 10 - 15* you see in PC's at best.
Edited by baj2k - 6/18/11 at 9:19pm
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post #50 of 51
Well for what it's worth Behemoth, I'd suggest dropping your radiators into some buckets with some ice and water. I think that's the only way you'll get cooler temperatures because the air blowing on your rads is hot to begin with.
    
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