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Cracking line on i7 960 die - Page 3

post #21 of 43
The knee jerk "OMG hez zanded the dyes!" reactions and the abject ignorance they represent are getting old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50;14253565 
I'm really amazed that thing still works...

You shouldn't be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Garnet;14253627 
I thought the die was the transistors themselves under a very thin layer, more or less? How is it still working?

The transistors on flip chips (pretty much any CPU made in the last 15 years) are on the bottom of the die.

The die is just plain silicon with no transistors or metal layers till a few dozen to a few hundred nm from the bottom of the die (the whole die being many thousands of nm thick).

If you are very careful to avoid cracks or deep scratches, you can remove 2/3 to 3/4 the thickness of the die without too much risk. Remember, the only reason the silicon is so thick is because the wafer they are cut from are 300mm diameter and have to be strong enough not to break under their own weight.
Edited by Blameless - 7/17/11 at 10:25pm
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post #22 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djk11 View Post
You might just have a weak chip, it happens. Know the batch number?

If you damaged it physically by lapping it too far it would probably be unstable even at stock or not even be able to POST, so I don't think thats the problem.

If temps are ok try VTT up to 1.45V and VCore up to 1.5V, one notch at a time, testing with Linpack at each step, just to see if you can get stable, not as a 24/7 OC. Can try to lower your CPU PLL. Also vIOH may need a bump. Just keep a close eye on temps and stop testing if you get too high into the 80C's. Write down any BSOD codes, sometimes they can indicate the problem.
Thanks. The batch# is 3050A374
I haven't used voltages that high, I will have a try when I got some time.
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post #23 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
You shouldn't be.



The transistors on flip chips (pretty much any CPU made in the last 15 years) are on the bottom of the die.

The die is just plain silicon with no transistors or metal layers till a few dozen to a few hundred nm from the bottom of the die (the whole die being many thousands of nm thick).
Good to know that!
Does it mean I can continue to polish the die? Silicon is not that great material for heat conductance. So I guess thinner the better.
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post #24 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Garnet View Post
From what I read, he was polishing the die. That picture he posted appears to be a sanded die. I'm not sure if all modern CPU dies are like this, but they're usually colored and shiny and reflective like this (this picture doesn't show it as well).



The picture the OP posted looks more like sanded metal now.

I thought the die was the transistors themselves under a very thin layer, more or less? How is it still working?
If you did this before and ruined a CPU, why did you do it again?
I ruined the first CPU while I removed the IHS, not by polishing. The die is not completely flat that's why I thought about polishing it.
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post #25 of 43
You could & you could maybe polish the crack you have to make it smooth again; otherwise it's a little bit hard to know how much you've went through already because it's only a few micrometers thick...
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post #26 of 43
Once the die has been cracked, prognosis is grim. Trying to sand it out may weaken the die to the point where the stress of mounting a heatsink to it damages it further, or may just make the crack worse.

Leaving it alone might be better, but once cracks start they usually grow.
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post #27 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shnur View Post
You could & you could maybe polish the crack you have to make it smooth again; otherwise it's a little bit hard to know how much you've went through already because it's only a few micrometers thick...
I cannot really see how deep is the crack. My observation is the more I polish it the larger the crack is. Maybe I applied a bit too much pressure while polishing. The chip may not like lateral force.

It is like glass, once it has a small fracture, it spreads out.
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post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
The knee jerk "OMG hez zanded the dyes!" reactions and the abject ignorance they represent are getting old.
Well, forgive everyone for not knowing everything? I thought the die was, more or less, the exposed CPU itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
The die is just plain silicon with no transistors or metal layers till a few dozen to a few hundred nm from the bottom of the die (the whole die being many thousands of nm thick).

If you are very careful to avoid cracks or deep scratches, you can remove 2/3 to 3/4 the thickness of the die without too much risk. Remember, the only reason the silicon is so thick is because the wafer they are cut from are 300mm diameter and have to be strong enough not to break under their own weight.
Human hair is typically said to be many tens of thousands of nm thick, so something like 1/5th to 1/10th the size of that still doesn't sound like you have alot of room to work with when you're sanding it down?
post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
The knee jerk "OMG hez zanded the dyes!" reactions and the abject ignorance they represent are getting old.



You shouldn't be.



The transistors on flip chips (pretty much any CPU made in the last 15 years) are on the bottom of the die.

The die is just plain silicon with no transistors or metal layers till a few dozen to a few hundred nm from the bottom of the die (the whole die being many thousands of nm thick).

If you are very careful to avoid cracks or deep scratches, you can remove 2/3 to 3/4 the thickness of the die without too much risk. Remember, the only reason the silicon is so thick is because the wafer they are cut from are 300mm diameter and have to be strong enough not to break under their own weight.
Was just going to write a similar post. Exactly the point I was going to make.

+rep. Many people are misinformed, or have no experience in removing IHS' themselves.
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post #30 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Once the die has been cracked, prognosis is grim. Trying to sand it out may weaken the die to the point where the stress of mounting a heatsink to it damages it further, or may just make the crack worse.

Leaving it alone might be better, but once cracks start they usually grow.
Thanks. It is very informative.

How is the chip that you got scratched now? Does it develop a crack or not working ?
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