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[Neowin] Rumor: AMD close to locking up CPU-GPU win for next-gen Xbox Console - Page 6

post #51 of 88
games are programmed differently on console. even a 9800gt-like graphics card on a console may perform like a gtx 460 in games. anyone wonder why those slow ass gpu's can play games like god of war 3, uncharted 2, crysis 2 etc. a pc version of that gpu would suck and can't play solitaire
post #52 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
Cant the APU's HD6550D be crossfired with another card? What I'm trying to ask, is wouldn't it be possible for the new XBox to utilize two HD6550D's? Instead of having it attached in a traditional manner like a PCI-E couldn't it be placed onto the mainboard like a discrete GPU?
The Trinity chip that net-gen Xbox will use will have a better integrated GPU as well as Bulldozer CPU cores.
Llano APU's can work in Hybrid Crossfire X when a discrete GPU is added.
I also am wondering if Microsoft will use the APU graphics,or add a discrete graphics chip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
Trinity chips already exist.
Only as very early ES chips.
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post #53 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
Sounds great. If true, this is huge. It means that, finally, consoles will actually have hardware comparable to the average PC.
The Xbox 360 did, before the 8800GTX came out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byardz View Post
Yet, the games will look just as good as the high end PCs 2-3 years after it comes out.
As someone who is quite literally playing his 360 now, and was playing his PS3 last night, I can say this is quite literally wrong and false, FO3 on my laptop (HD545v 1GB: 80 shaders @ 720Mhz) looks better than it does on 360, both at 1080p using my BenQ screen via HDMI to DVI adapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post
APU? no dedicated GPU?
It'll be custom designed, meaning it could have 800 shaders instead of 80 for all we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Dizzle View Post
That's not true. Compare a well developed DX11 (or DX12) game vs ANYTHING the consoles have out. It's not that they CAN put out the same graphics, its that PC games are ports.
There aren't any well developed DX11 games out yet, nor is DX12 even announced yet.

DX version means jack all apart from features, but the shader power and amount of RAM on PC severely destroys consoles amounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwolf909 View Post
Cool rumor but I seriously doubt it's true.

Console makers have historically used pretty dated hardware because of how well-proven and cheap it has become to produce. To use a CPU/GPU that's based on a retail product that hasn't even released to market yet is pretty unlikely.

They kind of need the final hardware to be in stone and running solid before they can even send dev units out to developers, so this would push the release back a long, long way.
Erm, the 360 came out with cutting edge hardware for its time...The 8800GTX came out 6 months or so later, the X1950XTX was the fastest single GPU card before then and the 360s GPU is about as fast as one.

Plus the 360s CPU is about as fast as the average stock desktop one, POWER is more efficient than x86 for performance (PS2: MIPs at 294MHz, slowest but not by far, Gamecube: POWER at 486Mhz and Xbox with x86 at 733Mhz being not much faster than the gamecube despite the massive for the time Mhz advantage)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
I'd rather have an HD4870 than an HD6550D, when it comes to gaming. One's a mid-range GPU, the other's a low-end budget part. Doesn't mean that the HD6550D isn't exciting in many ways and has its uses, but raw power trumps smaller process size.
It won't be a HD6550D though, for all we know it could have many more shaders than the HD6550D (For example, it could have two modules which would be smaller than 4 cores and double the shaders) plus the HD6550D is limited by RAM speed, the 360 could overcome that by having faster RAM than the average desktop due to the cheapness of it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post
The Xbox 360 GPU was basically the fastest GPU when it was released (for a few months at least). I wonder if the next Xbox will have similar relative performance compared to current GPUs. Maybe not.
Hardly, it was relatively equal to the high end single GPU PCs in gaming at the time.
Then 6 months later, here comes G80 and completely destroys everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCPUser View Post
Well, I think Trinity will have a better GPU than Llano in addition to whatever boast Bulldozer cores are over Stars cores.
It will simply because BD will probably have smaller cores than 32nm Stars, so they could fit a quad core BD in the same size as a dual core Stars. (Speculation, but it seems to hold some water as the point of BD was to fit more cores on die)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
I think you guys are all Consoles in general, even though YES are old, yes are out dated(compared to pc) however... they are still VERY playable, enjoyable. Your saying "6 months later" there outdated, not really.. consoles run at 1080p (or less..) and not to mention the optimization consoles receive, so really... saying that oh that console has a really outdated cpu/gpu in all honesty.. it DOESN"T need a better one and that's why consoles can go 5+ years before making a new one. Side by side, 1080p, Black ops PC vs Xbox.. PC may have a little better graphics but seriously..? not to mention, console players tend to sit further, lay back and relax in recliners, or on the couch and have a ball with there friends on the mics, graphics is the least they worry about, that's one thing PC gamers are so picky about having the latest greatest graphics. In the end.. PC may hold better SPECS but the consoles offer just enough to have the right amount of fun.. really what people should be saying is PC vs Wii then maybe they can compare the graphics and all that.
The amount of games that run at native 1080p on either Xbox 360 or PS3 I can probably count on one hand, the rest are either upscaled or at 720p.

That said, I hardly care about graphics, hence why I have a console for the good console exclusive games I like and a few others I like playing (Eg. Forza 3, GT5, LBP, Rock Band/Guitar Hero, Fallout 3, etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCPUser View Post
I think people are under-estimating APUs. With a bit of OCing current gen APUs can play Crysis 2 on above "console like" settings and above 30FPS @ 1050p. And next gen APUs will be that much faster.

Source
This will be custom designed, meaning if it isn't faster than the 360 by a decent amount I'll eat my hat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GameBoy View Post
He's sort of right. A Console wouldn't need anywhere near the same amount of power to achieve the same graphics as a high end PC.
Entirely depends, if the PC got the same optimization as a console then yeah, it would.

In a real world scenario, PC games tend to not be much better than console games in terms of graphics simply because devs don't bother with it, but with that said PC gaming is funner for me for most games simply because a console is always on the edge of dipping below 30fps, or jaggy as all heck. (That I've noticed anyway)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
Cant the APU's HD6550D be crossfired with another card? What I'm trying to ask, is wouldn't it be possible for the new XBox to utilize two HD6550D's? Instead of having it attached in a traditional manner like a PCI-E couldn't it be placed onto the mainboard like a discrete GPU?
That'd just be a PITA for devs to code for.
    
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post #54 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
I'd rather have an HD4870 than an HD6550D, when it comes to gaming. One's a mid-range GPU, the other's a low-end budget part. Doesn't mean that the HD6550D isn't exciting in many ways and has its uses, but raw power trumps smaller process size.
This will be a trinity part, not a Llano. That means they can use whatever GPU they can fit onto the die with bulldozer. Who knows, by then, they might be able to fit something like a 6790/7790 in it, which would put it about equal with a mid-range gaming PC.
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post #55 of 88
Very interesting. Let's see a few points:

1. While Nintendo can get away with a DX10.1 GPU, Microsoft's Xbox is a bit more than a social gaming machine; and DX11 parts have been around since 2009, so no reason not to use one, considering the lifespan of a console and the fact it will only be released next year;

2. The APU will be manufactured at 32nm or 28nm (AMD currently manufactures the C-30, C-50 and E-240 and E-350 APU's on 40nm which is a GPU node);

3. Considering that a Radeon HD6850 currently has a 127w TDP at 40nm (and that is for the whole board including RAM), it will probably scale to around 85w at 28nm; a 4 Core CPU with a 3.4 Ghz Clockspeed (at least, to surpasss the clockspeed of the current Xbox - makes for a nice marketing purpose too), should have a 65w TDP at 28nm.

That makes a 150w APU. Plus the rest of the system, and you'll have in the region of 180w power consumption. That is as much as the first PS3 used, and it ran very well. Not bad for a first generation APU (will then be die shrinked over the years).

Plus, now they only have one chip to cool. Only one heatsink, which makes it cheaper to design and more efficient to cool.

4. I have a few doubts about the memory. Couple that with 4GB of shared 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM (if they want to think about the future, they'll use 6GB), and you have a very nice and cheap to manufacture console, but the RAM speed might limit the performance of the GPU in the APU.

Perhaps they can mitigate this by using a triple (192-bit) or even quad (256-bit) channel memory configuration, but this might drive up the costs.

Or, they can go with 2GB of dedicated high speed GGDR5 memory (but this implicates a dedicated 128-bit bus at least, if not a 256-bit one, like the HD6850 has, which also drives up the costs) and a normal dual channel DDR3 configuration. They'll go with what offers the best compromise of price/performance.

8 GB of shared DDR3 1600 Mhz (preferably 1800) in a Quad channel memory configuration seems like the best solution on paper from a cost/performance perspective. Only one memory type to source, one shared memory system, one memory controller; I wonder if in practice it could be taken advantage of properly (the X58 Core i7's memory controller never really shined that much, but then again, games on the PC also rely on the dedicated GDDR of the GPU's, and on top of that, titles are not that well optimized to take advantage of a niche platform - compared to the P55 platform, so this could all be different on a console, where things are really optimized).
Edited by tpi2007 - 7/22/11 at 1:06am
 
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post #56 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
I'd rather have an HD4870 than an HD6550D, when it comes to gaming. One's a mid-range GPU, the other's a low-end budget part. Doesn't mean that the HD6550D isn't exciting in many ways and has its uses, but raw power trumps smaller process size.
but its a bulldozer APU not Llano!! So the GPU is probably better than a 6550D

To be honest im not sure what to think about the fact that the next Xbox will have a AMD CPU. I Dont know how bulldozer will perform but from what I know at the moment is that AMD CPU are horrible for gaming (especially for CPU-bound games or High RES). This is my expectation: I dont think Bulldozer will be better than Sandybridge Core for Core and games dont use more than 3thread ATM so theres no reason to buy a CPU with 6 or 8 cores for a gaming rig so I think the Bulldozer 4cores variant will simply just not be as a good as a Core i5 2500k.

Actually the Ideal hardware for a console right now would be something like a i5 2410M/2520m (low heat dissipation) and a gf106/108 GPU =) Yea laptop hardware would fit very well in a small console box.
Edited by DarkBlade6 - 7/22/11 at 4:12am
post #57 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
2. The APU will be manufactured at 32nm or 28nm (AMD currently manufactures the C-30, C-50 and E-240 and E-350 APU's on 40nm which is a GPU node);

3. Considering that a Radeon HD6850 currently has a 127w TDP at 40nm (and that is for the whole board including RAM), it will probably scale to around 85w at 28nm; a 4 Core CPU with a 3.4 Ghz Clockspeed (at least, to surpasss the clockspeed of the current Xbox - makes for a nice marketing purpose too), should have a 65w TDP at 28nm.

That makes a 150w APU. Plus the rest of the system, and you'll have in the region of 180w power consumption. That is as much as the first PS3 used, and it ran very well. Not bad for a first generation APU (will then be die shrinked over the years).
FYI- the top end APU is only 100W TDP.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103942
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post #58 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper View Post
maybe they can run crysis now
Maybe you can stop with the Crysis comments now.

More and more consoles and PCs are merging.. It might be interesting to see the next-next gen consoles.
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post #59 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by kppanic View Post
Maybe you can stop with the Crysis comments now.

More and more consoles and PCs are merging.. It might be interesting to see the next-next gen consoles.
Commenting about people asking, "Can it run Crysis" is tantamount to paying attention to the drunk guy at the party wanting to go streaking. Ignore them and they go away far more quickly.

They'll get the hint eventually.

OT, I agree with a lot of the APU comments made. If indeed we do get a Bulldozer APU in the XBox, I would be a happy camper. And though it maybe more difficult, I would love to see a discrete GPU onboard as well in crossfire. Lord knows it would be nice if new titles, port or not, had built in release day multi GPU support.

And, while I've been told it doesn't matter what GPU is at the heart, I'm foolishly hoping that having consoles with AMD GPU's might enable our little dedicated AMD GPU's a performance bump. As I've never coded a game in my life, and am admittedly naive on the subject, I'm sure my hopes will be in vain.
    
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post #60 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skripka View Post
FYI- the top end APU is only 100W TDP.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103942

And.... ?

What does that have to do with what I said ?

They are not going to put a comercially available APU in the Xbox. Nor a CPU + GPU. They always get a deal for something special/different that is better suited to the specific task. What I wrote was what I hope will be in it.

Even the Pentium III in the original Xbox was not available for purchase as it only had 128k of cache instead of 256k. Or the GPU in the Xbox360 that has 10MB of high speed ram right next to the GPU die.
 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [Neowin] Rumor: AMD close to locking up CPU-GPU win for next-gen Xbox Console