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post #51 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by dham View Post
Launch pad is desktop icons with grouping. Windows has had desktop icons forever and fences adds grouping. Or you can just place shortcuts in folders.
It's not quite the same though as having an entirely separate area that you can bring up on top of anything to get quick access to your apps rather than having it all over your desktop.
Quote:
Intellipoint driver includes an expose feature. Expose is just a hack/desperation move to get multitasking in OSX usable. It's definitely not. I used OSX for awhile(around 8 months) when I started my job(a couple years ago) and it had some strong points but for task switching Command + Tab and Command + ` was my best bet. The thing is Windows doesn't need a mission control like interface because the taskbar provides all those features at one glance. What windows are open. How many windows are open. Windows previews. The dock is what pissed me off the most in OSX. It's too big to leave up(even on smallest setting) and it's super slow to show/hide when on auto hide. If you don't believe me just google it. Auto hide the windows taskbar and see how much faster it shows. The only difference is windows taskbar doesn't need to be hidden because it's not a super space waster. I use mine on the small setting so I get even more space.
In Lion, or Snow Leopard for the matter, even with ten or fifteen Windows open, I can activate Expose and get to whatever app I need very quickly. I'm unable to do the same in Windows, I find it quite slow having to drop my mouse down over the app icon and waiting for the small preview list to pop up.

I think Windows does need something like Mission Control, true the Task Bar is more informative than the dock, it still doesn't let you quickly view all your open apps and get to the one you want. They tried with Win + Tab, but it's just horrible and shocking. And a desktop manager like Spaces is always welcome.

I've never found that to be a problem, and I do actually use auto hide on the task bar in Windows 7. I don't like that I can see the top of it though.
Quote:
One of the funniest things Lion says is a feature is being able to re-size windows from any corner. I was running the Lion dev version and I was just LMAO. I was like really? Seeing people re-size windows in OSX was just plain funny before. Because the maximize is broken you have to always drag the window to the top left and re-size from there. I'm sad I can't watch people at work do this anymore. I just ran hyperdock(cinch does the same thing) so it never really bothered me but most OSX users aren't that smart. The thing about running Windows is it gives you insight on how things in an OS should work(from a UI perspective) and when you see such lack detail in OSX you point it out and try to find something that fixes it. Long term OSX users just bend over and take it, and their productivity takes a plunge.
I've never found the maximize button to affect my productivity. It is funny though, some of the things they list, you should read through the 250+ features lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
Improvements to Safari, Mail, iCal, Address Book, ...? That's a pretty weak argument. That's like saying that MS improved notepad, minesweeper, and internet explorer. They're not part of the OS, they're just bundled with it. And quite frankly, they're all just a waste of space. On both platforms.
You're leaving quite a few things out, more specifically the more notable things. The improvements to Safari and Mail were quite significant, but overall the OS has been improved greatly. And, no it is most certainly not like saying that.
Quote:
Yes they did, with XP SP2. That's why I picked that example specifically. Yes there were obviously the bug fixes, but with how much they changed and added it was practically an entirely new OS.
But that is the exception, not the rule... and XP SP2 was mostly, if not entirely focused around security right? Or rather adding what it lacked... And it was a long time ago.

That aside, you say that Lion is really only a couple of UI differences and internal optimizations, but how would you know? Have you even put any time into finding out what has changed? I'm thinking not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dham View Post
Mac mail is actually pretty good. Other than that, yes, they are a waste of space. Spotlight was good like 4 years ago. Windows search kills spotlight in every way.

Don't get me started on iCal. That skin is disgusting and address book looks terrible too. The new mail layout is awesome though and the only one of those 3 that actually didn't get turned into a piece of crap.


You no like Spotlight? Uhh... seriously though, how come? I love the improvements to it, and I use it often.
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post #52 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
It's not quite the same though as having an entirely separate area that you can bring up on top of anything to get quick access to your apps rather than having it all over your desktop.

In Lion, or Snow Leopard for the matter, even with ten or fifteen Windows open, I can activate Expose and get to whatever app I need very quickly. I'm unable to do the same in Windows, I find it quite slow having to drop my mouse down over the app icon and waiting for the small preview list to pop up.

I think Windows does need something like Mission Control, true the Task Bar is more informative than the dock, it still doesn't let you quickly view all your open apps and get to the one you want. They tried with Win + Tab, but it's just horrible and shocking. And a desktop manager like Spaces is always welcome.
Right click on the windows taskbar and go to properties, and change the behavior from "always combine" to "never combine". It makes things SO much easier. I can't stand the "new and improved" taskbar either :/

I think Linux is the only OS that got it right though. Gnome taskbar + cairo dock = win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
You're leaving quite a few things out, more specifically the more notable things. The improvements to Safari and Mail were quite significant, but overall the OS has been improved greatly. And, no it is most certainly not like saying that.

But that is the exception, not the rule... and XP SP2 was mostly, if not entirely focused around security right? Or rather adding what it lacked... And it was a long time ago.

That aside, you say that Lion is really only a couple of UI differences and internal optimizations, but how would you know? Have you even put any time into finding out what has changed? I'm thinking not.
The point is that no matter WHAT they improve in Safari and Mail, they still aren't part the OS itself. They are bundled applications. The OS is the kernel, the shell, and anything that has to do with managing applications, users, and system resources. That's it. As far as those specific things are concerned, Lion is still a service pack, not a new OS.
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post #53 of 69
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Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
Right click on the windows taskbar and go to properties, and change the behavior from "always combine" to "never combine". It makes things SO much easier. I can't stand the "new and improved" taskbar either :/

I think Linux is the only OS that got it right though. Gnome taskbar + cairo dock = win.
Ah, I did that thanks. I'll give that a go for a while.
Quote:
The point is that no matter WHAT they improve in Safari and Mail, they still aren't part the OS itself. They are bundled applications. The OS is the kernel, the shell, and anything that has to do with managing applications, users, and system resources. That's it. As far as those specific things are concerned, Lion is still a service pack, not a new OS.
First of all, the OS has had changes under the hood, there's 3,000+ new APIs for developers to make use of and that should be proof enough.

You've got things like systemwide iOS-like scrolling and overlay scroll bars, you've got the HiDPI groundworks for retina displays, Sandboxing and Privilege Separation, ASLR, and then the other things that are a part of the OS like Resume, Auto Save and Versions, Fullscreen Apps, and the iOS-like desktop, you've also got Push Notifications and In-App Purchases, and all the iCloud stuff too.

Second of all, app changes do count because they come with the OS and you can't get them any other way (Safari and iTunes aside). Safari has unique functionality in Lion, and iTunes for Lion is 64-bit. I'm not sure if 64-bit iTunes will be available on Snow Leopard or not, but it probably will.
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post #54 of 69
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Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
There's really only the MacBook Pro line that you can say that about. The iMac, Mac Mini, and MacBook Air are all pretty great value for their form factors (at present times, not necessarily saying they've always been that way). The dual processor Mac Pro's are comparable to PC equivalents. Maybe the MacBook Pro's are a bit expensive, but I'd put a lot of it down to having such great battery life and build quality.
The Mac Pro are quite expensive for what you get. I seriously looked into one for some reason a couple years ago...the lack of customization, horrid RAM prices and really terrible video cards completely turned me off the experience. They came in WAY more expensive than an equivalent Dell or HP workstation.
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post #55 of 69
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Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
The Mac Pro are quite expensive for what you get. I seriously looked into one for some reason a couple years ago...the lack of customization, horrid RAM prices and really terrible video cards completely turned me off the experience. They came in WAY more expensive than an equivalent Dell or HP workstation.
I'm not sure about back then, but when I last checked about a year ago, the dual processor Mac Pro's were between $350 and $350 cheaper depending on the model. That's with matched RAM, HDDs, and taking into account the $100 better graphics card in the Mac Pro.

The single Mac Pro's hold a steady $1k above the competition, which I put down to not eating out of the iMac's profits. Who'd buy a $2000 iMac when you can get a $1500 Mac Pro, right?

And yeah, the upgrades are pretty terrible in some cases, although they've improved over time. To add an additional 2TB HDD in the Mac Pro about two years ago, it was like $500 or something.
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post #56 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post
It's not quite the same though as having an entirely separate area that you can bring up on top of anything to get quick access to your apps rather than having it all over your desktop.

In Lion, or Snow Leopard for the matter, even with ten or fifteen Windows open, I can activate Expose and get to whatever app I need very quickly. I'm unable to do the same in Windows, I find it quite slow having to drop my mouse down over the app icon and waiting for the small preview list to pop up.

But see that's where your mistaken. I actually have windows previews off(besides you can control the time it takes for them to come up. Unlike the dock speed you can't change). But what's good about Windows is if you have multiple windows open in a program when you click it, it shows the amount of windows in the program. When you left click the dock it just brings up the last window. If you right click it you get a list, but that doesn't do anything. With one glance to the taskbar you know how many windows you have open. You expect that when you click the label/icon that it will bring up the small previews(which can be made bigger) and you can choose the windows.

My default taskbar is small icons/show labels/always combine. This option is actually not even available by default in Windows 7. The only thing you can do is small icons/show labels/combine when full. 7 taskbar tweaker allows this option plus more. The dock doesn't have such control. Sure there are some default options you can over write but it doesn't have the flexibility that the taskbar has.





Even if you can't tell the exact amount of windows open in a program from one glance you can still instantly tell that there are multiple windows open within that program.





I think Windows does need something like Mission Control, true the Task Bar is more informative than the dock, it still doesn't let you quickly view all your open apps and get to the one you want. They tried with Win + Tab, but it's just horrible and shocking. And a desktop manager like Spaces is always welcome.

No one uses Win + Tab. Anyway like I said there are plenty of expose programs for windows. Intellipoint has it built in to the driver. I challenge you to find and click what you need with mission control faster than me. I've used mission control and it takes Expose and makes it worse. The other thing I noticed with MacOSX is the hidden windows. You will have some programs open sometimes and even if you click the icon and use Command + ` you still can't get to the window. The only way to get to it is expose. With windows you always know the windows that are open at all time. It's never any magic that will show you the windows. You know that when you look at your taskbar you know that it gives you a 100% accurate assessment of what is open and what windows are open. I never felt that way with the dock.

I've never found that to be a problem, and I do actually use auto hide on the task bar in Windows 7. I don't like that I can see the top of it though.

You don't need to autohide the windows taskbar because it doesn't kill space like the dock does. You see why I think everything is a hack in MacoSX. Instead of fixing the fundamental problems: Dock is super out dated, screen waster, and doesn't manage windows worth crap. They come up with hacks like full screen apps, mission control, etc to try to fix it. It just covers up the real issue. If you want to see a real dock, get on a linux install and download some docks, then you can see why your MacOSX dock was left 10 years ago.

I've never found the maximize button to affect my productivity. It is funny though, some of the things they list, you should read through the 250+ features lol.

You're leaving quite a few things out, more specifically the more notable things. The improvements to Safari and Mail were quite significant, but overall the OS has been improved greatly. And, no it is most certainly not like saying that.

But that is the exception, not the rule... and XP SP2 was mostly, if not entirely focused around security right? Or rather adding what it lacked... And it was a long time ago.

That aside, you say that Lion is really only a couple of UI differences and internal optimizations, but how would you know? Have you even put any time into finding out what has changed? I'm thinking not.



You no like Spotlight? Uhh... seriously though, how come? I love the improvements to it, and I use it often.

This is following the theme of my entire post. They are not fixing anything. They are tacking on features to a broken product. It's fundamentally flawed(at the core). Besides we've already have the spotlight discussion a few months back. Have fun with your .DS_Store.



Also one final thing that annoys me with the dock is clicking say Chrome. Then clicking finder. If I click finder again it does nothing. On Windows if I click Chrome then Explorer. Then I click Explorer again it takes me back to Chrome which was my last program in focus.

If your interested.

http://rammichael.com/7-taskbar-tweaker


Edited by dham - 7/26/11 at 5:43am
    
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post #57 of 69
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Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
The Mac Pro are quite expensive for what you get. I seriously looked into one for some reason a couple years ago...the lack of customization, horrid RAM prices and really terrible video cards completely turned me off the experience. They came in WAY more expensive than an equivalent Dell or HP workstation.
Last time I was on Apple's site I had a giggle fit when I got to the Mac Pro page. The Mac Pro is a dual-Xeon workstation with ECC memory and yet they're offering only a pathetic Radeon 5770/5870? Last time I checked, those are gaming/consumer cards which (aside from being obsolete as hell) aren't well suited for rendering and other "serious work" type stuff that one generally buys a workstation for. Y U NO offer the NVIDIA Quadro 6000, Apple????
post #58 of 69
So if someone I know is using Mac, and she has Snow Leopard, there isn't anything for her really worth upgrading to?

I don't see anything substantial in this upgrade... but I thought I would ask.

Steelbom seems to really try and rationalize it, but he is not doing a good job, so could anyone else put out core changes that are worth it?

In regards to her Mac, its a Mac Book Pro from the pre-July 2011.
Edited by RagingCain - 7/26/11 at 6:14am
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post #59 of 69
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Originally Posted by dham View Post
But see that's where your mistaken. I actually have windows previews off(besides you can control the time it takes for them to come up. Unlike the dock speed you can't change). But what's good about Windows is if you have multiple windows open in a program when you click it, it shows the amount of windows in the program. When you left click the dock it just brings up the last window. If you right click it you get a list, but that doesn't do anything. With one glance to the taskbar you know how many windows you have open. You expect that when you click the label/icon that it will bring up the small previews(which can be made bigger) and you can choose the windows.
You can still activate application Expose if you hold your mouse over the application icon in the dock when you activate Mission Control. And, whilst the task bar does show you how many windows you have open, the only time I need to know that is when I'm changing windows, which I can easily see from Mission Control. But, to each his own, I guess.
Quote:
No one uses Win + Tab.
Oh, I know that... lol
Quote:
Anyway like I said there are plenty of expose programs for windows. Intellipoint has it built in to the driver.
I'll never believe anything can run as smoothly as something implemented as the creators of the OS themselves.
Quote:
I challenge you to find and click what you need with mission control faster than me. I've used mission control and it takes Expose and makes it worse. The other thing I noticed with MacOSX is the hidden windows. You will have some programs open sometimes and even if you click the icon and use Command + ` you still can't get to the window. The only way to get to it is expose. With windows you always know the windows that are open at all time. It's never any magic that will show you the windows. You know that when you look at your taskbar you know that it gives you a 100% accurate assessment of what is open and what windows are open. I never felt that way with the dock.
I think I could beat you but that's kind of hard to prove

I like it. It feels like I've got a hub for everything I need, and I've not had any difficult yet switching between windows. And yes, I have encountered those dialog windows that only show up when you click the parent window.
Quote:
You don't need to autohide the windows taskbar because it doesn't kill space like the dock does. You see why I think everything is a hack in MacoSX. Instead of fixing the fundamental problems: Dock is super out dated, screen waster, and doesn't manage windows worth crap. They come up with hacks like full screen apps, mission control, etc to try to fix it. It just covers up the real issue. If you want to see a real dock, get on a linux install and download some docks, then you can see why your MacOSX dock was left 10 years ago.
I like it hidden, and would prefer it more hidden. I also like my dock hidden.

I don't really think Fullscreen Apps or Mission Control were created to try and fix the dock. It's not like it's hard to implement the features in Windows 7 for the task bar. I don't even know why we need a dock and I hope they remove it. Launchpad gives me quick access to all my apps from anywhere and Mission Control shows me every window I've got open.
Quote:
This is following the theme of my entire post. They are not fixing anything. They are tacking on features to a broken product. It's fundamentally flawed(at the core). Besides we've already have the spotlight discussion a few months back. Have fun with your .DS_Store.
Ah, you've jogged my memory. I don't really remember much about it though. I've never had a problem with Spotlight, I type in "t" and it finds TextEdit for me. It's fast, and I much prefer Spotlight over Windows Search, but like I said to each his own.
Quote:


Also one final thing that annoys me with the dock is clicking say Chrome. Then clicking finder. If I click finder again it does nothing. On Windows if I click Chrome then Explorer. Then I click Explorer again it takes me back to Chrome which was my last program in focus.
Ha, I never noticed that before.
Quote:
If your interested.

http://rammichael.com/7-taskbar-tweaker
Ah, thanks. I'm happy with the taskbar as it is though. Cheers.
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post #60 of 69
It's a bizzaro world these days. In the old days, Apple was expensive but good, with a slim, easy to use OS that was devoid of bloat, and came with some pretty good applications that were usable - and they were not making much money. Now, it's still expensive but borked, with a bloated OS crippled with featuristis, where each new "version" that comes out borks even more applications that need to be replaced at great cost, with applications that are obese and interfere with performance and usability.

Really, it is a great achievement to have shovelled out an OS that people will blindly buy without any shred of actual media, and where even the smallest problem will brick the system (needing a trip to a Genius to fix it with some snake oil). And to have an OS that is not only less usable and more resource hogging than ever before - but that has become so inflated and bloated with featuritis that Windows 7 is clearly the performance champ on pretty much each and every level.

There is the old virus argument, but with all of the resource and performance sucking going on with garbage like TimeMachine, Spotlight and Stacks - it would take the average virus four months to execute.

Their sop to the lack of practical, real world applications is Bootcamp or virtualizing - by the time I buy all of that junk, I could just buy an entire PC and do it right.

Of course, it's pretty cool that they can charge three times more for an Air than any of the PC makers can charge for a superior, better performing netbook that has better specs and better build quality all around, with actual usable ports that standard devices can connect to.

Apple rulez!
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