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Can someone explain overclocking to me? - Page 2

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by banthracis View Post
I'll have to disagree with the above posters that running a chip at 5.0ghz will cause it to fail in 2 years max. Why overclocking damages a CPU is a bit more complicated.

Why does OCing dmg a CPU?
Explaining this requires delving into a bit of Quantum Mechanics, but I'll keep it simple. You'll just have to take my word for some of the concepts though =P

Normally, electrons stay around their atom's and don't go wandering off. So in a CPU, they'll stay in one transistor and not move to others. However, at the quantum level (objects smaller a quanta which is 6.626068 × 10-34 m2 kg / s aka planck's constant) it's actually possible for electrons to escape from energy wells when given enough energy, even infinitely deep ones, it's just very uncommon. As a result of this, in a process known as quantum tunneling, electrons can pass through solid matter and be ejected out the other side.

Now, a transistor in a CPU is made from alternating + and - doped and undoped silicon. Once in a while, an electron will escape and bury a couple atoms into an adjourning transistor, and if this happens enough times, eventually all the way through to the adjourning transistor before coming back to it's orbit.

Keep doing this and eventually an electron doesn't come back, but stays attached to an atom in the adjourning undoped section of silicon. Over time (usually years), this tunneling causes a hole to be formed between two adjourning transistors and allows free electron flow.

This bypasses the "gates" between the transistors and as a result, the computer will misread this resulting in an error. Open and closed gates are how a CPU determines if something should be read as a 1 or a 0.
This process is called silicon degradation and eventually results in a complete CPU failure.

Now, as to where overclocking comes in.

If you know about electron orbital theory, the more energy an electron has, the more likely it is to leave it's orbit and tunnel. IE if your CPU is running hot, or has a considerably higher voltage going through it, electrons tunnel in much higher numbers. As a result, the more you OC, the faster you make those tunnel which cause silicon degradation.


In addition, if you increase the voltage enough, you can actually physically destroy the silicon lattice of the gates within a processor. Basically what this is think of a guy throwing a ball at a wood door. If he throws it at 20mph it'll probably just bounce off. However, if you throw it at 80mph, you might just break right through it. Increases v does a similar thing with electrons, shooting them through the CPU with greater force.

Now, on to OC and Heat
In a CPU boosting F, has a very minor, almost insignificant heat increase.

It's v increase that dramatically increases heat.

Power Dissipation = PD in Watt
Voltage = Volt
Freq = Hz
C= Capacitance in Farads

Total PD in Watt = C x F x V^2
As C doesn't change (ok it technically does, but for the sake of keeping the math simply we can assume it doesn't)

If you actually plug in numbers and graph the function, the heat increase due to a freq increase is minute compared to the heat increase from a v increase, as one increases exponentially, the other linearly.

Indeed, the more you increase the V, the less the F part of the equation is relevant to the total temp.


Looking at real world data, look at the power usage increase in Tom's i5 efficiency article.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...cy,2500-7.html


Each bump was a constant 10mhz clock speed increase, but due to the exponential nature of the voltage increase contribution to PD, the graph is not linear, and power usage does not increase until you start seeing large v increases.

Power usage directly translates into heat.

As for actual temps, it's more complicated than purely based on power dissipation
Cpu temperature = (Total PD in Watt) x (HSF's Thermal Resistance in
C/W) + (Ambient Temp in Celcius)

For comparison purposes the resistance and ambient can be considered constant (technically not true once again, as resistance changes slightly with temp, and ambient increases with more heat output).

In your specific case, the answer is not so much what clock speed you reach while OCing, but how much v increase you'll need to attain it. If there is no v increase, life of the CPU will be minimally impacted.

There is no easy way to tell how each chip is affected as due to imperfection in the manufacture process, the degradation rate vs v or f graph would be unique to each chip.

However, a big factor is temp of the CPU and v used, both of which increase the rate of electron tunneling. A 5.0ghz OC at below ambient and say 1.4v will last much longer than a 5.0gz OC at 80C and 1.5v.

To get some actual approximations, you'll have to consider the fact that Intel designs its CPU's to last ~10 years at the Tcontrol value (was mentioned by Intel several years back, not sure if the current gen of CPU is much diff), which is the temperature they strive to keep the CPU at. This temp is MUCH higher than most enthusiasts will tolerate for their CPU's.

I'm not sure exact value for sandy bridge, but it's ~68C. It's somewhere in the thermal specifications data sheet if you want to dig for exact value.
http://download.intel.com/design/pro...nex/324644.pdf

Now, assuming you cool you CPU to the Tcontrol point, as long as their is no v increase, the lifespan will be minimally impacted. The more voltage you add, the shorter the lifespan is. However, I doubt even a 1.5v or higher OC if kept at the Tcontrol point will last less than 5 years based on what I've seen from Intel's own data. For most enthusiast's 5 years is more than they will use a CPU for.

For some more details, here's the powerpoint of a Tcontrol presentations Intel gave a few years back.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tz9tdjkbxek5gc2
Simple version: When you increase voltage, power consumption increases, and this is translated into heat.

Thanks for the massive physics lesson
Edited by Doodlebro - 7/25/11 at 9:11pm
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post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roksonixx View Post
I'd agree that running 5ghz would last a lot longer than 2 years... unless you were putting 1.5volts through it 24/7 it wouldn't be affected too much.

banthracis' post was very informative, and a very interesting read... +rep. it's funny that our cpu's are affected "at the quantum level"
Intel spec sets the Max safe vcore at 1.52 volts. They said themselves that a CPU will last 8-10 years at that voltage, so as long as temperatures aren't scorching with decent cooling, you'd be fine.
Edited by Doodlebro - 7/25/11 at 6:06pm
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post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodlebro View Post
Simple version: When you increase voltage, power consumption increases, and this is translated into heat. O

Thanks for the massive physics lesson
Haha good summary. I'll add it as a TL: DR next time =D
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post #14 of 21
I totally just got burned with Quantam Mechanics.lol
But,yea, don't listen to me that much because I don't know nearly as much as most people on this forum. I was just stating what I thought was the advantages and disadvantages of overclocking. But hey, I learned Quantam mechanics today. Haha
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by banthracis;14340326 
I'll have to disagree with the above posters that running a chip at 5.0ghz will cause it to fail in 2 years max. Why overclocking damages a CPU is a bit more complicated.

Why does OCing dmg a CPU?
Explaining this requires delving into a bit of Quantum Mechanics, but I'll keep it simple. You'll just have to take my word for some of the concepts though =P

Normally, electrons stay around their atom's and don't go wandering off. So in a CPU, they'll stay in one transistor and not move to others. However, at the quantum level (objects smaller a quanta which is 6.626068 × 10-34 m2 kg / s aka planck's constant) it's actually possible for electrons to escape from energy wells when given enough energy, even infinitely deep ones, it's just very uncommon. As a result of this, in a process known as quantum tunneling, electrons can pass through solid matter and be ejected out the other side.

Now, a transistor in a CPU is made from alternating + and - doped and undoped silicon. Once in a while, an electron will escape and bury a couple atoms into an adjourning transistor, and if this happens enough times, eventually all the way through to the adjourning transistor before coming back to it's orbit.

Keep doing this and eventually an electron doesn't come back, but stays attached to an atom in the adjourning undoped section of silicon. Over time (usually years), this tunneling causes a hole to be formed between two adjourning transistors and allows free electron flow.

This bypasses the "gates" between the transistors and as a result, the computer will misread this resulting in an error. Open and closed gates are how a CPU determines if something should be read as a 1 or a 0.
This process is called silicon degradation and eventually results in a complete CPU failure.

Now, as to where overclocking comes in.

If you know about electron orbital theory, the more energy an electron has, the more likely it is to leave it's orbit and tunnel. IE if your CPU is running hot, or has a considerably higher voltage going through it, electrons tunnel in much higher numbers. As a result, the more you OC, the faster you make those tunnel which cause silicon degradation.


In addition, if you increase the voltage enough, you can actually physically destroy the silicon lattice of the gates within a processor. Basically what this is think of a guy throwing a ball at a wood door. If he throws it at 20mph it'll probably just bounce off. However, if you throw it at 80mph, you might just break right through it. Increases v does a similar thing with electrons, shooting them through the CPU with greater force.

Now, on to OC and Heat
In a CPU boosting F, has a very minor, almost insignificant heat increase.

It's v increase that dramatically increases heat.

Power Dissipation = PD in Watt
Voltage = Volt
Freq = Hz
C= Capacitance in Farads

Total PD in Watt = C x F x V^2
As C doesn't change (ok it technically does, but for the sake of keeping the math simply we can assume it doesn't)

If you actually plug in numbers and graph the function, the heat increase due to a freq increase is minute compared to the heat increase from a v increase, as one increases exponentially, the other linearly.

Indeed, the more you increase the V, the less the F part of the equation is relevant to the total temp.


Looking at real world data, look at the power usage increase in Tom's i5 efficiency article.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i5-750-efficiency,2500-7.html


Each bump was a constant 10mhz clock speed increase, but due to the exponential nature of the voltage increase contribution to PD, the graph is not linear, and power usage does not increase until you start seeing large v increases.

Power usage directly translates into heat.

As for actual temps, it's more complicated than purely based on power dissipation
Cpu temperature = (Total PD in Watt) x (HSF's Thermal Resistance in
C/W) + (Ambient Temp in Celcius)

For comparison purposes the resistance and ambient can be considered constant (technically not true once again, as resistance changes slightly with temp, and ambient increases with more heat output).

In your specific case, the answer is not so much what clock speed you reach while OCing, but how much v increase you'll need to attain it. If there is no v increase, life of the CPU will be minimally impacted.

There is no easy way to tell how each chip is affected as due to imperfection in the manufacture process, the degradation rate vs v or f graph would be unique to each chip.

However, a big factor is temp of the CPU and v used, both of which increase the rate of electron tunneling. A 5.0ghz OC at below ambient and say 1.4v will last much longer than a 5.0gz OC at 80C and 1.5v.

To get some actual approximations, you'll have to consider the fact that Intel designs its CPU's to last ~10 years at the Tcontrol value (was mentioned by Intel several years back, not sure if the current gen of CPU is much diff), which is the temperature they strive to keep the CPU at. This temp is MUCH higher than most enthusiasts will tolerate for their CPU's.

I'm not sure exact value for sandy bridge, but it's ~68C. It's somewhere in the thermal specifications data sheet if you want to dig for exact value.
http://download.intel.com/design/processor/designex/324644.pdf

Now, assuming you cool you CPU to the Tcontrol point, as long as their is no v increase, the lifespan will be minimally impacted. The more voltage you add, the shorter the lifespan is. However, I doubt even a 1.5v or higher OC if kept at the Tcontrol point will last less than 5 years based on what I've seen from Intel's own data. For most enthusiast's 5 years is more than they will use a CPU for.

For some more details, here's the powerpoint of a Tcontrol presentations Intel gave a few years back.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tz9tdjkbxek5gc2

I was just about to say that...
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post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by banthracis View Post
Smart words
Nice post, good read
    
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post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by banthracis View Post
(giant quote)
This. Thanks for taking the time to actually explain all of that to us BTW, I know I probably wouldn't have the patience to.

OP, I do believe your CPU would last much longer than two years at 5 GHz. Its lifetime will be shortened, but then again who actually lets their CPUs live out their entire lifespan? I could boot up some old Pentium 4s right now, but I wouldn't because technology has progressed so far since then and I have a way better CPU now. So unless you plan on keeping this for several years, don't hesitate to get the highest overclock you can without exceeding voltage recommendations too much (I say too much because it's perfectly safe to go a bit past the recommended voltage. Going past AMD's recommended max voltage for a 24/7 overclock had not noticeably damaged an old Athlon 64 I got rid of a three years ago.)
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post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeker View Post
CPU life is dependent on mostly voltage, not frequency.
Current draw is directly dependent on frequency and has a significant impact on CPU (and other components') life.
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post #19 of 21
if you're a first time overclocker, then i suggest to buy the basics/cheaper first. its not a good idea to mess around with expensive stuff and you dont even know what you are doing. it also depends on what you need and what you use it for.

i have a friend that doesn't know how to overclock. but wants to have an overclocked system. (so i will be the one to pimp his rig) and he has an i3 540 buid. he told me that he's going to buy the GTX 570. i told him why? thats an overkill for your rig and use. he said he wants his computer to look good and that. and he only play those online free games.

he also was planning to buy the P8P67-PRO motherboard for his i3 540. i said thats not compatible for the 540. he said it is and he wants that motherboard so bad cause it has alot of features and memory slots and it looks good.
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A-600
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post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by croy View Post
if you're a first time overclocker, then i suggest to buy the basics/cheaper first. its not a good idea to mess around with expensive stuff and you dont even know what you are doing. it also depends on what you need and what you use it for.

i have a friend that doesn't know how to overclock. but wants to have an overclocked system. (so i will be the one to pimp his rig) and he has an i3 540 buid. he told me that he's going to buy the GTX 570. i told him why? thats an overkill for your rig and use. he said he wants his computer to look good and that. and he only play those online free games.

he also was planning to buy the P8P67-PRO motherboard for his i3 540. i said thats not compatible for the 540. he said it is and he wants that motherboard so bad cause it has alot of features and memory slots and it looks good.
Lol, no offense to your friend but that's just funny.
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Kalki
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Alienware
(18 items)
 
ASUS A53Z
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX-8320 @ 4.73GHz Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Radeon HD 7950 @ 1200/1800 8GB Samsung 30nm DDR3 @ 2000MHz 11-11-11-28-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M4 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 2TB Seagate Barracuda ST 7200 RPM who cares 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Raystorm XSPC Razor HD 7970 XSPC EX240 Swiftech MCP50X 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Black Ice GT Stealth 240 2x XSPC Xinruilian 1650rpm 2x Yate Loon Slim 1800rpm Alphacool Light Tower 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Windows 7 Gentoo GNU/Linux Dell UltraSharp U2412M CM Storm Trigger MX Brown 
PowerCaseMouse
Corsair AX750 Corsair Carbide 300R Logitech G400 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD OPTERON BULLDOZER 16-CORE 2GHZ (32GHZ TOTAL) ALIENWARE 3+1 PHASE ITX GAMING BOARD 4GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GT 430 32GB GAMING DDR3 800MHZ CL13 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2TB 5400RPM GAMING HDD GAMING BLU RAY BURNER ONE GAMING CASE FAN UBUNTU W/ UNITY (I AM 1337 H4X0R) 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HD-READY 24" 1366X768 PENTILE TN PANEL GAMING M... ALIENWARE TACTX UBER 1337 BACKLIT RUBBER MEMBRA... OFF-BRAND 200W GAMING PSU; 65% EFFICIENCY  ALIENWARE GAMING CASE WITH THE COOL GLOWING ALIEN 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
ALIENWARE TACTX GAMING MOUSE ALIENWARE MOUSEPAD IT'S DESIGNED FOR GAMING AND... BEATS AUDIO 1337 ALIENWARE TACTX 8-CHANNEL GAMING HEADSET/M... 
OtherOther
16 CORES!!!! 4GB VRAM!!!! FASTER THAN 3960X + 7... ALIENWARE GAMING CARPET 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD A6-3420M OC 2.2GHz / 3GHz Turbo 1.10625v ASUS A53Z AMD Radeon HD 6520G 6GB DDR3 1333MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
320GB WD Scorpio Black yes. really good Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
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Fedora GNU/Linux 1366x768 LED-backlit TN panel Decent + numpad ~5hr 6-cell li-ion 
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