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[TC Magazine] Leaked roadmap shows 10-core AMD desktop CPUs in 2012 - Page 24

post #231 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula m View Post


I pitty you.
And I wish you could spell.
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post #232 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post
Doubt it

Interlagos and Valencia didn't have any issues and Interlagos supposedly turbo cores 300MHz past Magny Cores



16 cores 115w tdp 2.8GHz TC
12 cores 115w tdp 2.5GHz

server chips dont operate under the same condition ..


and btw those numbers are still rumors until we hear otherwise...


and who are you to know that bulldozer in its server variant didnt have any problems too ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post
but it wasn't delayed

2H 2011 aka Q3 2011 hasn't ended yet so walla no delay!

yes it was delayed ...


amd themselves said its been pushed back ... meaning delayed ...



Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post
We're talking about Seronx here. Even AMD fans on OCN consider him over the top.
i wouldnt call myself an amd fan .. but i do have to agree on this
Edited by Fr0sty - 7/27/11 at 9:35pm
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post #233 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post
You're missing the point, and I ain't gonna explain it to you.
You're missing the point that early steppings always clock like crap. Intel showed off an engineering sample of Sandy Bridge running at 2 GHz. The final release stepping easily reaches 5 GHz. You're also missing the point that the poor clock speeds are just a rumor. AMD themselves say it's a strategic move so that Llano and Bulldozer each get to shine individually without one overshadowing the other. OBR (unreliable source, I know) says that there really isn't much of a problem with B0 and B1 steppings... and apparently has no clue why the delays are happening.

Also, while Seronx can come across as a bit over the top and biased sometimes, he does know quite a bit of his stuff about CPU microarchitecture and I respect him for that. Too many people are talking about performance when all they know is "8 cores... four modules... AMD... ummmm........." and then just use some stupid flawed logic to try to justify a predetermined stance.
Edited by Usario - 7/27/11 at 9:35pm
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post #234 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
You're missing the point that early steppings always clock like crap. Intel showed off an engineering sample of Sandy Bridge running at 2 GHz. The final release stepping easily reaches 5 GHz. You're also missing the point that the poor clock speeds are just a rumor. AMD themselves say it's a strategic move so that Llano and Bulldozer each get to shine individually without one overshadowing the other. OBR (unreliable source, I know) says that there really isn't much of a problem with B0 and B1 steppings... and apparently has no clue why the delays are happening.

Also, while Seronx can come across as a bit over the top and biased sometimes, he does know quite a bit of his stuff about CPU microarchitecture and I respect him for that. Too many people are talking about performance when all they know is "8 cores... four modules... AMD... ummmm........." and then just use some stupid logic to try to justify a predetermined stance.
I'm not the one spewing nonsense that BD WILL clock high, and passing it off as fact without any proof to back up my claim. So far the evidence shows that they're having issues in clocking high, and being "competitive", thus a cause for the delay. These aren't rumors, we've seen videos of people with B0 chips that have clear issues.

There's a clear difference between an ES chip that is purposely clocked low for testing purposes, and an ES chip that is clearly having issues. Plus, if you remember when SB benchmarks leaked 4 months prior to their release, they were very close to retail performance.

BD is out in what a month? We have nothing solid to go by.

You've already made up your mind, stop passing off your theories as facts, especially since there is ZERO proof to back up your claims. Case and point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
Summary of all those pics Seronx posted:

Bulldozer is a beast microarchitecture. It will bulldoze Intel. It could even win in IPC.
About Seronx, he's still convinced that BD is not delayed, 'nuff said.
Edited by 2010rig - 7/27/11 at 10:20pm
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post #235 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post
I'm not the one spewing nonsense that BD WILL clock high, and passing it off as fact without any proof to back up my claim. So far the evidence shows that they're having issues in clocking high, and being "competitive", thus a cause for the delay. These aren't rumors, we've seen videos of people with B0 chips that have clear issues.
And we've also seen videos of people with B0 chips at 5 GHz on air.

Quote:
There's a clear difference between an ES chip that is purposely clocked low for testing purposes, and an ES chip that is clearly having issues. Plus, if you remember when SB benchmarks leaked 4 months prior to their release, they were very close to retail performance.
ES chips are binned low. Most chips that get high clocks stay in AMD's labs. Of course they're having issues at high clocks and with things like turbo and power gating. ES chips are designed for motherboard manufacturers to make sure all the features are functioning properly.

And AMD engineering samples =/= Intel engineering samples. You seem to forget the Athlon 64 benchmark leaks. They showed little improvement over the Athlons of the time in most tasks. However, when the actual Athlon 64 was released, it was a top-notch chip.

Quote:
BD is out in what a month? We have nothing solid to go by.
This isn't Intel. AMD has been tight lipped about future releases ever since the failure that was Phenom, which was rushed. AMD is taking their time with Bulldozer.

Quote:
You've already made up your mind, stop passing off your theories as facts, especially since there is ZERO proof to back up your claims.
I have made up my mind. Until someone can prove that Bulldozer will not be a superb CPU, I will continue to say it will be because the design of the architecture and things AMD themselves have told us all point to that. Because word from AMD is not proof. If AMD says Bulldozer will clock at higher than 3.5 GHz out of the box, I'd much rather trust them than some unreliable Xbit labs article that says ENGINEERING SAMPLES are having trouble clocking high.

Quote:
Case and point:


About Seronx, he's still convinced that BD is not delayed, 'nuff said.
I wasn't commenting about anything Seronx himself said. If you actually bothered to mention what content was in the post I was responding to, Seronx himself barely said anything. He posted pictures of a guide AMD made for optimizing software for Bulldozer or something like that which contained a very detailed description of the architecture. And if you or anyone else arguing with me over this had a clue about the microarchitecture, you'd know that Bulldozer will be an excellent processor. Here's a shocker: theoretically, based on the detail of the integer cores that we have now (pipelines and execution units), Bulldozer will be able to execute the same number of instructions per clock as Sandy Bridge. Another thing: BD modules scale ~40% better than conventional cores with HyperThreading (the difference depends on the nature of the workload).

But of course, nobody arguing for Intel will say anything in detail about the microarchitectures. Instead they'll use flawed logic based on non-technical claims. I've heard too many times things along the lines of "since AMD is so far behind now there's no way they can catch up to Intel with Bulldozer" and "there's no proof Bulldozer will be any good" when those are both false. Then when people start to believe false rumors and take benchmark scores from early engineering samples as indicators of the final product's performance, you know that they're flat out wrong. So, to sum this up: when you can say why Bulldozer's microarchitecture does not seem in pretty much every way superior to Sandy Bridge, come back. Yes, I'm talking about the very specifics of the microarchitecture. Rumors are stupid. 99.999% of them are not true.

And I made a really long post in this very thread a couple days ago regarding why even if Bulldozer is a better architecture it needs to clock high enough, and why the pricing and marketing shows that the final product will be fast enough. And AMD will get it to clock high eventually if they tweak it and go through multiple steppings. Just like how they took what was relatively one of the worst clocking architectures ever, the original Phenom, and turned it into the highest clocking architecture of its time, the Phenom II. It's very well within possibility that even if that xbit article is true, AMD can make a comeback with even just one new stepping if they've realized what exactly was holding the clocks that far back.
Edited by Usario - 7/27/11 at 11:43pm
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post #236 of 352
It seems weird to just have 10 cores (5 modules), I'd expect they would rather go for 12 cores/6 modules just like Deneb -> Thuban
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post #237 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
tl:dr
I can appreciate a civilized discussion.

Here's the thing, on paper and in theory BD's architecture does look solid, but at this point, we don't know how it's going to translate to Real World performance, and I'm not talking about just benchmarks.

Thubans score great in Cinebench, and do well in rendering, but when it comes to pushing Xfire and SLI set ups, many users have reported bottlenecks. Heck, you guys were arguing about 65 FPS and 45 FPS, and whether you can't tell the difference is irrelevant, because you also have to take into account the MINIMUM FPS.

If I had the choice on picking up a CPU that delivered higher AVG FPS and Higher Minimum's, and it was only a $30 difference, the choice is obvious.

Before I make up my mind, I want to see some real proof about all the hype AMD has been giving us for so long. I understand the architecture well, but I've yet to see how well it performs. So far, the performance that I've seen is nothing to get excited about.

Yes, those are ES samples, etc, so far, not impressed.

AMD had no problem boasting Llano's superior performance over SB, MONTHS before its release, but when it comes to BD, everything is pure rumors and speculation, and there has to be a reason for that. What that REAL reason is, no one knows at this point, and all we can do is speculate.

Some will accept that BD is superior without proof and take AMD's word for it, I would rather see proof before I make up my mind. IMO, you can't keep passing things off as factual based on speculation of the architecture, and how great it looks on paper.

Facts are facts when there's proof to support them, and so far, AMD is not providing any proof to back up their claims. I'm waiting for BD to see which way to go for my 2nd rig, but man, I could've had a 2600K for MONTHS, but instead I'm stuck in this waiting game, and who knows if it's going to be worth the wait.
Edited by 2010rig - 7/28/11 at 12:23am
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post #238 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
And we've also seen videos of people with B0 chips at 5 GHz on air.
that was OBR ... the most un-reliable source ...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
ES chips are binned low. Most chips that get high clocks stay in AMD's labs. Of course they're having issues at high clocks and with things like turbo and power gating. ES chips are designed for motherboard manufacturers to make sure all the features are functioning properly.

es chips are made for multiple reasons ... to make sure the masks are ok and the lithographic equipment isnt misalligned ....

and for other obvious debuging testing and validation





Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
I have made up my mind. Until someone can prove that Bulldozer will not be a superb CPU, I will continue to say it will be because the design of the architecture and things AMD themselves have told us all point to that. Because word from AMD is not proof. If AMD says Bulldozer will clock at higher than 3.5 GHz out of the box, I'd much rather trust them than some unreliable Xbit labs article that says ENGINEERING SAMPLES are having trouble clocking high.

and did amd reveal clock speed on any of their models???


NOPE!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
I was responding to, Seronx himself barely said anything. He posted pictures of a guide AMD made for optimizing software for Bulldozer or something like that which contained a very detailed description of the architecture. And if you or anyone else arguing with me over this had a clue about the microarchitecture, you'd know that Bulldozer will be an excellent processor. Here's a shocker: theoretically, based on the detail of the integer cores that we have now (pipelines and execution units), Bulldozer will be able to execute the same number of instructions per clock as Sandy Bridge. Another thing: BD modules scale ~40% better than conventional cores with HyperThreading (the difference depends on the nature of the workload).
.


he didnt post detailed info at all .. he pointed one small portion ... that's it ...


and without context we wont know how it will have an impact on the possible performance ...


on paper it does look good .. but it might be hindered by another thing in the architecture or it could be even better then we expect ...

all im saying is dont forget that there are other variables



Quote:
Originally Posted by test tube View Post
It seems weird to just have 10 cores (5 modules), I'd expect they would rather go for 12 cores/6 modules just like Deneb -> Thuban

the die would probably be too big for their plans for 6 modules ...


anyway ... why complain for a 10 core cpu
Edited by Fr0sty - 7/28/11 at 12:42am
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post #239 of 352
Regarding the architecture: Netburst looks great on paper, Barcelona looks great on paper - when you read the Intel/AMD blurb that is. But the released reality was somewhat different.

Until reputable, independent people get retail samples in their hands we have no idea how BD will perform. Period. So why would anyone make up their mind already? Whether you're pro or anti-AMD, basing any decision on marketing information and rumour is a recipe for disaster (you either end up with a turkey or miss the greatest thing since sliced bread, all because of a predjudice - and how stupid does that make you in the end).

In the technology game, past performance means nothing. Predicted performance means nothing. All that matters is how fast and how expensive the kit you have on the market is at any given moment. Currently Intel has the high performance, higher cost end of the market pretty much sown up. The middle ground is tricky, with the hexs and lower-end SB chips trading blows as to which is better performing and better value. With lower cost boards and CPUs AMD rules the budget end of the market. But with the new Intel chips rumoured to be coming in at sub-$40 and the hype around BD all that could change come September.


The only real issue is whether September will ever arrive. Regardless of how you see the lack of any CPU shipments from AMD (as to whether BD is delayed or not), ultimately AMD have promised something special since 2008/9 and it's not yet available. Which has to make you worry a little. But I have my fingers crossed that BD will be at least a bit special, if only because a bit of competition always shakes up the market. But will I buy it? Well I'll have to wait and see...
post #240 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post
I can appreciate a civilized discussion.

Here's the thing, on paper and in theory BD's architecture does look solid, but at this point, we don't know how it's going to translate to Real World performance, and I'm not talking about just benchmarks.
But it's much better to use architectural details than "history" and "logic" when discussing the estimated performance of the chip.

Quote:
Thubans score great in Cinebench, and do well in rendering, but when it comes to pushing Xfire and SLI set ups, many users have reported bottlenecks. Heck, you guys were arguing about 65 FPS and 45 FPS, and whether you can't tell the difference is irrelevant, because you also have to take into account the MINIMUM FPS.
This is true. But just remember that AMD never marketed the X6 for gaming. It's non-existant on game.amd.com.

Quote:
If I had the choice on picking up a CPU that delivered higher AVG FPS and Higher Minimum's, and it was only a $30 difference, the choice is obvious.
I have said multiple times that in the $200+ market right now Intel is definitely the best choice.

Quote:
Before I make up my mind, I want to see some real proof about all the hype AMD has been giving us for so long. I understand the architecture well, but I've yet to see how well it performs. So far, the performance that I've seen is nothing to get excited about.

Yes, those are ES samples, etc, so far, not impressed.
We haven't seen any actual performance numbers. The only leaks we've seen were from some Chinese website that posted results showing Bulldozer completely crushing Intel, and then OBR who, whenever he releases a leaked benchmark, comes back a couple hours later and says "haha u idiots u really believed that!?" and then goes on a pro-Intel fanboyish rant. He has said he needs to keep good relations with AMD so he can keep getting free products for reviews and whatnot, so he's not going to violate the NDA.

Quote:
AMD had no problem boasting Llano's superior performance over SB, MONTHS before its release, but when it comes to BD, everything is pure rumors and speculation, and there has to be a reason for that. What that REAL reason is, no one knows at this point, and all we can do is speculate.
AMD was talking about Llano's *graphics* performance. They could do this. Why? Because they knew Intel had no chance. Intel sucks at GPUs.

However, if they started talking about Bulldozer's performance early, Intel could rush through development of Ivy Bridge and/or dramatically lower the price of SB-E. That would quickly destroy AMD's chances.

Quote:
Some will accept that BD is superior without proof and take AMD's word for it, I would rather see proof before I make up my mind. IMO, you can't keep passing things off as factual based on speculation of the architecture, and how great it looks on paper.
Still convinced that there's no proof it will achieve at the least Nehalem-level IPC? Because IPC rounded to the nearest whole number is determined by the number of pipelines in the integer core, which we know is four. That's the same number as Nehalem and Sandy Bridge, while Phenom II only had three (leading to few IPC). While the design and efficiency of the pipelines and execution units determines the exact number, which could be 3.7 or 4.4, we do have a good idea of what IPC will be like. Since Nehalem's IPC is around 3.8-4.1, I don't think it'll be that hard for BD to defeat it. SB, however... I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'd assume that SB is constantly executing four IPC. So that could be a challenge.

Quote:
Facts are facts when there's proof to support them, and so far, AMD is not providing any proof to back up their claims. I'm waiting for BD to see which way to go for my 2nd rig, but man, I could've had a 2600K for MONTHS, but instead I'm stuck in this waiting game, and who knows if it's going to be worth the wait.
AMD has made no claims about actual performance. But I'll put it this way: at the very least, IPC should be a 25% or more improvement over Phenom II. And an eight-core Phenom II would be faster than the 2600k in things like rendering. Then add a >25% IPC increase... you see where I'm going with this?

Here's what they've told us, besides the specifics of the architecture and the well-known core count:

-Goal is to clock higher than 3.5 GHz
-Interlagos will have 50% more throughput than Magny Cours
-Bulldozer module delivers performance comparable to ~1.8 cores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr0sty View Post
that was OBR ... the most un-reliable source ...
Can you fake a BIOS boot screen in a shaky video? I don't think so. I don't trust anything else from OBR, but that's one thing I do believe. He couldn't fake that.


Quote:
es chips are made for multiple reasons ... to make sure the masks are ok and the lithographic equipment isnt misalligned ....

and for other obvious debuging testing and validation
No, you're thinking of the chips in AMD's labs. Engineering samples, the ones that actually leave AMD's development centers, are bottom-binned, low clocked, poorly performing pieces of crap. Almost every single one.


Quote:
and did amd reveal clock speed on any of their models???


NOPE!!!
And did AMD say they're targeting more than 3.5 GHz out of the box?

YES!!!

Quote:
he didnt post detailed info at all .. he pointed one small portion ... that's it ...


and without context we wont know how it will have an impact on the possible performance ...
I'm sorry, but that's quite misguided. The pages he pointed to reveal the IPC of the architecture.

Quote:
on paper it does look good .. but it might be hindered by another thing in the architecture or it could be even better then we expect ...

all im saying is dont forget that there are other variables
At this point, if AMD isn't lying I don't see what would be holding it back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast View Post
Regarding the architecture: Netburst looks great on paper, Barcelona looks great on paper - when you read the Intel/AMD blurb that is. But the released reality was somewhat different.
NetBurst only looked good on paper when they said it was going to hit 10 GHz.

Barcelona wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. The Phenom 9650 is just as fast as the Q6600. But the 9650 can't even dream of overclocking as well... and that was its only problem at the time.

Quote:
Until reputable, independent people get retail samples in their hands we have no idea how BD will perform. Period. So why would anyone make up their mind already? Whether you're pro or anti-AMD, basing any decision on marketing information and rumour is a recipe for disaster (you either end up with a turkey or miss the greatest thing since sliced bread, all because of a predjudice - and how stupid does that make you in the end).
We have some idea. We have a good idea of what the IPC will be like. We know how modules scale compared to regular cores. We know that there's four modules. We know that there's 16MB of cache. We are told it will exceed 3.5 GHz stock.

For me, that's enough to put forward estimates on the performance level. And nowhere do I state them as fact.

Quote:
In the technology game, past performance means nothing. Predicted performance means nothing. All that matters is how fast and how expensive the kit you have on the market is at any given moment. Currently Intel has the high performance, higher cost end of the market pretty much sown up. The middle ground is tricky, with the hexs and lower-end SB chips trading blows as to which is better performing and better value. With lower cost boards and CPUs AMD rules the budget end of the market. But with the new Intel chips rumoured to be coming in at sub-$40 and the hype around BD all that could change come September.
I do agree with this.

Quote:
The only real issue is whether September will ever arrive. Regardless of how you see the lack of any CPU shipments from AMD (as to whether BD is delayed or not), ultimately AMD have promised something special since 2008/9 and it's not yet available. Which has to make you worry a little. But I have my fingers crossed that BD will be at least a bit special, if only because a bit of competition always shakes up the market. But will I buy it? Well I'll have to wait and see...
I think that while from a consumer standpoint it's a bad thing it's delayed, in some ways it's actually a good thing that it's delayed. It means that AMD is taking their time and not releasing a rushed product (original Phenom). It means that they want to get it right this time. And that makes me anticipate it even more.
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