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[TC Magazine] Leaked roadmap shows 10-core AMD desktop CPUs in 2012 - Page 28

post #271 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
And Penryn isn't Core 2.

The Phenom II X6 is about as fast clock per clock as the 1366 quad-core i7s. Bulldozer should be at least 50% faster than that.
Well, um, yes it is. It's also Core 2 Solo, Core 2 Quad, Pentium and Celeron depending on the number of active cores on the die. Just like Nehalem and Westmere are both Core processors. But I'm not really sure what that's got to do with anything, aside from demonstrating that you're confusing architecture families with architectures - are you lumping early Phenom and Phenom II together performance-wise too?

IF BD is 50% faster than current X6's clock for clock then the processor will be a worth considering for some people, but it won't touch the 2600k at the rumoured price points though.
post #272 of 352
I never said 50% clock per clock, core per core. I said 50%.

Also "And Penryn isn't Core 2" was sarcastic. I know that Penryn was almost the same as the old Core 2 with Intel stealing 20 of our nanometers.
Edited by Usario - 7/29/11 at 1:29am
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post #273 of 352
Some of the AMD fans have been in denial since Conroe sent the FX series the P4 way. That moment showed that you can get better performance at a third of the price from a brand new architecture. Now with every AMD iteration there have so many excuses that you can't count them. Amongst these, the famous all the websites are biased. This comes from the same group of people that were praising the same websites for recommending AMD over INTEL when Netburst flopped. All of a sudden, these websites are biased because they do not recommend an inferior product. What people don't see is that in many of the concluding arguments, there is a paragraph about AMD addressed to the low budget people.

The next argument comes from real cores is better than HT. Nobody said otherwise but because AMD needs more cores to keep up with INTEL's architecture this argument has become even more prevalent. So bottom line is : 6 is better than 4 with HT or is it?


The last argument comes from the Messiah, Bulldozer. There haven't been any official numbers about performance and how this new architecture stands against the latest intel offerings. The x6 scenario all over again. When AMD announced the X6 the communities were flooded by 'we gonna PWN INTEL'. When this did not happen, every AMD argument was based on the few tests where the X6 shines. The famous Cinebench test was used as an example to prove how bad Intel CPUs are. When it came to folding and raw performance competitions, nobody said AMD was better all of a sudden. Most of the big points for OCN were brought in by Nehalem and SB.

Similar to the X6 scenario, Bulldozer is considered a winner if it outperforms Nehalem. For those who forgot, Nehalem is a 45nm architecture introduced in 2007 and released in 2008. If we do the math, it is 3 years old. Now Bulldozer is 32nm and by default it should compete with Intel's best and latest which is SB and later on IVY Bridge.

Beating the last generation is not good enough if you want to revamp the AMD glory days. If Bulldozer flops many new excuses will arise. If Bulldozer wins, it will be the best thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately, AMD is one generation behind and without the resources available to Chipzilla, it is difficult to close the gap. By the time Bulldozer settles in the market, 22nm IVY will join the club. If Bull-E is not 22nm then AMD has a problem. You cannot overcome this difference in architecture via clock only.
Edited by Wishmaker - 7/29/11 at 2:50am
 
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post #274 of 352
When I read Piledriver I thought of Zangeif from Street Fighter XD
    
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post #275 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
I never said 50% clock per clock, core per core. I said 50%.
But without a reference that don't mean a lot. If they make the top BD 50% faster than the top X6, at the $300 price point that's 50% faster for almost 100% more money. Not great.

And a 2600K at stock is 10-20% faster than a 950, but overclocks better. If AMD have to push the clocks closer to their limits to beat Intel we could be looking at CPUs that barely overclock at all.

So 2600k at 4.5GHz is 50% faster than a 950 at stock, for $300.

BD would (using your arguement) be 50% faster than a 950, may not be able to overclock much past that, and still cost $300.

That still makes AMD at least half a generation behind, as we're midway between SB and the next-gen releases from Intel. Not really going to be groundbreaking is it? And they still require more expensive and larger dies to do it, so will make less profit than Intel per chip sold - meaning Intel can easily drop the price on the 2600k and still be ahead of the curve.
post #276 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post
Some of the AMD fans have been in denial since Conroe sent the FX series the P4 way. That moment showed that you can get better performance at a third of the price from a brand new architecture. Now with every AMD iteration there have so many excuses that you can't count them. Amongst these, the famous all the websites are biased. This comes from the same group of people that were praising the same websites for recommending AMD over INTEL when Netburst flopped. All of a sudden, these websites are biased because they do not recommend an inferior product. What people don't see is that in many of the concluding arguments, there is a paragraph about AMD addressed to the low budget people.

The next argument comes from real cores is better than HT. Nobody said otherwise but because AMD needs more cores to keep up with INTEL's architecture this argument has become even more prevalent. So bottom line is : 6 is better than 4 with HT or is it?


The last argument comes from the Messiah, Bulldozer. There haven't been any official numbers about performance and how this new architecture stands against the latest intel offerings. The x6 scenario all over again. When AMD announced the X6 the communities were flooded by 'we gonna PWN INTEL'. When this did not happen, every AMD argument was based on the few tests where the X6 shines. The famous Cinebench test was used as an example to prove how bad Intel CPUs are. When it came to folding and raw performance competitions, nobody said AMD was better all of a sudden. Most of the big points for OCN were brought in by Nehalem and SB.

Similar to the X6 scenario, Bulldozer is considered a winner if it outperforms Nehalem. For those who forgot, Nehalem is a 45nm architecture introduced in 2007 and released in 2008. If we do the math, it is 3 years old. Now Bulldozer is 32nm and by default it should compete with Intel's best and latest which is SB and later on IVY Bridge.

Beating the last generation is not good enough if you want to revamp the AMD glory days. If Bulldozer flops many new excuses will arise. If Bulldozer wins, it will be the best thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately, AMD is one generation behind and without the resources available to Chipzilla, it is difficult to close the gap. By the time Bulldozer settles in the market, 22nm IVY will join the club. If Bull-E is not 22nm then AMD has a problem. You cannot overcome this difference in architecture via clock only.
Then don't buy it. If you are the type of person that needs to have the absolute best available then buy Intel's SB-E extreme edition when it drops and be happy you have the fastest processor.

However, there are a considerable number of us who are looking for the cheapest processor that meets our requirements. Right now that is the 2500K for gamers, but even though they haven't been on top for a while AMD has fared very well amongst people who shop with that mentality for the last few years.

It is all about the price, if Bulldozer is priced correctly for its performance and can push a modern multi-gpu system then a lot of gamers/enthusiasts will buy it even if Sandy is faster in certain aspects. Again it is all about price. Things are not just cut and dry as you portray them. There is a market for the company that does have the revenue to release the fastest processor year after year.
Edited by JCPUser - 7/29/11 at 4:01am
post #277 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
I never said 50% clock per clock, core per core. I said 50%.

Also "And Penryn isn't Core 2" was sarcastic. I know that Penryn was almost the same as the old Core 2 with Intel stealing 20 of our nanometers.
i hope your not using that 50% more performance for 33% more core numbers right???


because its been allready said that its 50% more throughput ... for 33% more cores ... its a change in the memory controller + higher memory speed standard that did this ...
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post #278 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr0sty View Post
i hope your not using that 50% more performance for 33% more core numbers right???


because its been allready said that its 50% more throughput ... for 33% more cores ... its a change in the memory controller + higher memory speed standard that did this ...
I'm not taking that number from JF. I know the difference between throughput and speed.

That said, 50% increase over X6 is my most conservative estimate for Bulldozer. 50% over X6 puts it slightly below the Core i7 990X... not great. But I'd rather be more conservative in my claims than indadvertedly start a flame war with both sides accusing the other of being stupid fanboys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast View Post
But without a reference that don't mean a lot. If they make the top BD 50% faster than the top X6, at the $300 price point that's 50% faster for almost 100% more money. Not great.
Do you seriously think that the 2600k is 50% faster than the 2500k?

Do you think the Core i7 990X is almost twice as fast as the Core i7 970?

Thought not.

Quote:
And a 2600K at stock is 10-20% faster than a 950, but overclocks better. If AMD have to push the clocks closer to their limits to beat Intel we could be looking at CPUs that barely overclock at all.
Who cares if they barely overclock if they come at >4 GHz out of the box? If the 4.5 GHz Turbo number is real, though, I do think these things will pass 5 GHz. AMD has said on the promo page "overclock for a big boost in speed" when talking about the unlocked multiplier on all Bulldozer CPUs... I don't think they would say that if the things don't OC.

Quote:
So 2600k at 4.5GHz is 50% faster than a 950 at stock, for $300.

BD would (using your arguement) be 50% faster than a 950, may not be able to overclock much past that, and still cost $300.
That was a conservative estimate. And saying that it won't overclock is baseless. It's obvious Intel can and probably will release a 4 GHz or higher version of the i3, i5, and quad-core i7 after Bulldozer drops if it is successful.

Quote:
That still makes AMD at least half a generation behind, as we're midway between SB and the next-gen releases from Intel. Not really going to be groundbreaking is it? And they still require more expensive and larger dies to do it, so will make less profit than Intel per chip sold - meaning Intel can easily drop the price on the 2600k and still be ahead of the curve.
Rumors said months ago Intel will drop the price if Bulldozer is a success. But if AMD is really going to be selling octocores for as low as $270, I think AMD will still be an obvious choice for anyone who uses multithreaded programs and possibly even single threaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post
Some of the AMD fans have been in denial since Conroe sent the FX series the P4 way. That moment showed that you can get better performance at a third of the price from a brand new architecture. Now with every AMD iteration there have so many excuses that you can't count them. Amongst these, the famous all the websites are biased. This comes from the same group of people that were praising the same websites for recommending AMD over INTEL when Netburst flopped. All of a sudden, these websites are biased because they do not recommend an inferior product. What people don't see is that in many of the concluding arguments, there is a paragraph about AMD addressed to the low budget people.
I'm not in denial that AMD sucks right now.

Anandtech Bench uses mostly biased benchmarks, evidenced by how the first one is a nearly five year old BAPco (read: owned by Intel) benchmark.

Quote:
The next argument comes from real cores is better than HT. Nobody said otherwise but because AMD needs more cores to keep up with INTEL's architecture this argument has become even more prevalent. So bottom line is : 6 is better than 4 with HT or is it?
6 is better than 4 with HT if the IPC is comparable enough.

AMD's Bulldozer cores aren't full cores. ~60% in FPU-intensive workloads and ~90% in integer based workloads. So yes, they kind of do need eight to beat Gulftown.

Quote:
The last argument comes from the Messiah, Bulldozer. There haven't been any official numbers about performance and how this new architecture stands against the latest intel offerings. The x6 scenario all over again. When AMD announced the X6 the communities were flooded by 'we gonna PWN INTEL'. When this did not happen, every AMD argument was based on the few tests where the X6 shines. The famous Cinebench test was used as an example to prove how bad Intel CPUs are. When it came to folding and raw performance competitions, nobody said AMD was better all of a sudden. Most of the big points for OCN were brought in by Nehalem and SB.
Do you know why Cinebench is so popular? Because it represents performance in something that people actually do with their computers that actually stresses their CPU properly *cough*gaming*cough*. Nobody REALLY cares how fast their processor is in a test like SuperPi (which is, BTW, biased towards Intel by using instructions only Intel uses ATM so AMD CPUs always score the same as Intel CPUs half as fast as they really are).

Quote:
Similar to the X6 scenario, Bulldozer is considered a winner if it outperforms Nehalem. For those who forgot, Nehalem is a 45nm architecture introduced in 2007 and released in 2008. If we do the math, it is 3 years old. Now Bulldozer is 32nm and by default it should compete with Intel's best and latest which is SB and later on IVY Bridge.
People are talking about it beating Nehalem in *IPC* and completely overthrowing the 990X. Not about it competing with the 960 or anything. The X6 does that... perhaps not too well, but whatever. AMD isn't doing anything well right now except the sub-$100 market, and that's about to change when the new Celerons are released.

Quote:
Beating the last generation is not good enough if you want to revamp the AMD glory days. If Bulldozer flops many new excuses will arise. If Bulldozer wins, it will be the best thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately, AMD is one generation behind and without the resources available to Chipzilla, it is difficult to close the gap. By the time Bulldozer settles in the market, 22nm IVY will join the club. If Bull-E is not 22nm then AMD has a problem. You cannot overcome this difference in architecture via clock only.
BD-E probably won't be 22nm, which is a bit worrying (especially for single threaded performance because it probably won't clock as high as IB), but Next Generation Bulldozer will almost certainly be 14nm with 3D transistors. GloFo says that they will be ready to start producing 14nm chips with 3D transistors around the time NGBD is expected... forget exactly when, sometime in 2013 or early 2014.
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post #279 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post
Do you seriously think that the 2600k is 50% faster than the 2500k?

Do you think the Core i7 990X is almost twice as fast as the Core i7 970?

Thought not.
I'm not talking about chips within a lineup, I'm talking about the new chips replacing the old ones.

You always pay a price premium for the top chips in any product line - that's only to be expected. Just like the Extreme chips are always in a 'special' price bracket, and they never get discounted however many subsequent CPUs get released.

However the i7 2600k pretty much replaces the i7 870 in the upper mainstream segment - and it's basically the same price as the old chip, but with 25% better performance. Much better than BD replacing the X6, as the new chip will be double the price but only 50% faster (according to your extimates). If they'd managed to hit the same price point for 50% more performance that would have been quite something - maybe we'll see something similar from lower in the BD range, but we'll have to wait and see.
post #280 of 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast View Post
I'm not talking about chips within a lineup, I'm talking about the new chips replacing the old ones.

You always pay a price premium for the top chips in any product line - that's only to be expected. Just like the Extreme chips are always in a 'special' price bracket, and they never get discounted however many subsequent CPUs get released.

However the i7 2600k pretty much replaces the i7 870 in the upper mainstream segment - and it's basically the same price as the old chip, but with 25% better performance. Much better than BD replacing the X6, as the new chip will be double the price but only 50% faster (according to your extimates). If they'd managed to hit the same price point for 50% more performance that would have been quite something - maybe we'll see something similar from lower in the BD range, but we'll have to wait and see.
The X6 was around $300 at launch but went down because Intel dominated it, so I don't see what the problem is.

Also I expect the quad-core BD ($190) to be about as fast as the X6 in rendering and much faster in single threaded (35%+ depending on the program and variables in the architecture that we're uncertain of right now).
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Kalki
(25 items)
 
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(18 items)
 
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AMD FX-8320 @ 4.73GHz Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Radeon HD 7950 @ 1200/1800 8GB Samsung 30nm DDR3 @ 2000MHz 11-11-11-28-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M4 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 2TB Seagate Barracuda ST 7200 RPM who cares 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Raystorm XSPC Razor HD 7970 XSPC EX240 Swiftech MCP50X 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Black Ice GT Stealth 240 2x XSPC Xinruilian 1650rpm 2x Yate Loon Slim 1800rpm Alphacool Light Tower 
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Windows 7 Gentoo GNU/Linux Dell UltraSharp U2412M CM Storm Trigger MX Brown 
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AMD OPTERON BULLDOZER 16-CORE 2GHZ (32GHZ TOTAL) ALIENWARE 3+1 PHASE ITX GAMING BOARD 4GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GT 430 32GB GAMING DDR3 800MHZ CL13 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
2TB 5400RPM GAMING HDD GAMING BLU RAY BURNER ONE GAMING CASE FAN UBUNTU W/ UNITY (I AM 1337 H4X0R) 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HD-READY 24" 1366X768 PENTILE TN PANEL GAMING M... ALIENWARE TACTX UBER 1337 BACKLIT RUBBER MEMBRA... OFF-BRAND 200W GAMING PSU; 65% EFFICIENCY  ALIENWARE GAMING CASE WITH THE COOL GLOWING ALIEN 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
ALIENWARE TACTX GAMING MOUSE ALIENWARE MOUSEPAD IT'S DESIGNED FOR GAMING AND... BEATS AUDIO 1337 ALIENWARE TACTX 8-CHANNEL GAMING HEADSET/M... 
OtherOther
16 CORES!!!! 4GB VRAM!!!! FASTER THAN 3960X + 7... ALIENWARE GAMING CARPET 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD A6-3420M OC 2.2GHz / 3GHz Turbo 1.10625v ASUS A53Z AMD Radeon HD 6520G 6GB DDR3 1333MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
320GB WD Scorpio Black yes. really good Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
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Fedora GNU/Linux 1366x768 LED-backlit TN panel Decent + numpad ~5hr 6-cell li-ion 
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