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[TR] Physicists Recreate End Of Time. - Page 13

post #121 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel View Post
How do these"scientists " know what atom they are looking at to derive the Second? They use formulas involving the Speed of Light, The Meter and the Second. A "Proof" requires using something other than itself to define itself. The fact of the "matter" (pun intended) is that we not only do not understand the basic nature of the Universe, we do not yet even have a way to take valid measurements.
Holy ****, you are right! My cellphone stopped working and my GPS just drove me into a building!

It turns out the second is actually 9,192,631,771 cycles!

Everything we know is lie! I'm falling through solid objects as I type this!
    
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post #122 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel View Post
How do these"scientists " know what atom they are looking at to derive the Second? They use formulas involving the Speed of Light, The Meter and the Second. A "Proof" requires using something other than itself to define itself. The fact of the "matter" (pun intended) is that we not only do not understand the basic nature of the Universe, we do not yet even have a way to take valid measurements.
A cesium atom is a cesium by definition..... it is what is it because it is.

You do realize that science is based upon axioms and laws as well?

Define "valid".

You may not understand something... but that does not mean it is wrong.
Once again...
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post #123 of 200
Mind is not blown, mind continues to think about more important things than "The end of the world", etc.

Physics smysics, who cares?

Science is at best a charlatan parade of the unknown or concoction of destruction. At best science names things, gives definition to things, and helps us understand and realize things that are feasibly possible. This is nothing more than a charade of guess what I found? Again, who cares?

If you want to impress the world come up with something original, this is science fiction at best...
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post #124 of 200
You guys are missing the point. I never said anything about the utility of modern physics. I am fully aware that we as a speicies are capable of a lot of whiz-bang things, and that using the best model we currently have for the universe id how these things are created. This does not however mean that this model is correct. If it were, we we not be having such a lively discussion about "Einsteins Thoeries", we would be chatting about "Einsteins Laws". They are called theories for a good reason- they have not been proven.

Let me give an example of how incorrect perceptions of the universe can still be useful:

Lets say there is a monkey in a research facility. Now, in his cage are two buttons. When the monkey pushes the Red button- he gets a nasty electric shock. When he presses the Green button, a banana appears on a tray for him. The buttons are operating on electricty, and are controlled by a computer, the electricity for which comes from a Nuclear Generation Facility. Do you think that this monkey is figuring out the physics involved in th Electricity generration, The construction and programming of the computer, and the windings involved in the servo that actuates the banana producer ? Or do you think perhaps he is operating on the theory of "The Green Button gives me bananas and the Red Button gives me Shocks"??

Just because we are able to do useful things with our limited understanding of the Universe does not mean that we know exactly why they are so.
    
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post #125 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel View Post
You guys are missing the point. I never said anything about the utility of modern physics. I am fully aware that we as a speicies are capable of a lot of whiz-bang things, and that using the best model we currently have for the universe id how these things are created. This does not however mean that this model is correct. If it were, we we not be having such a lively discussion about "Einsteins Thoeries", we would be chatting about "Einsteins Laws". They are called theories for a good reason- they have not been proven.

Let me give an example of how incorrect perceptions of the universe can still be useful:

Lets say there is a monkey in a research facility. Now, in his cage are two buttons. When the monkey pushes the Red button- he gets a nasty electric shock. When he presses the Green button, a banana appears on a tray for him. The buttons are operating on electricty, and are controlled by a computer, the electricity for which comes from a Nuclear Generation Facility. Do you think that this monkey is figuring out the physics involved in th Electricity generration, The construction and programming of the computer, and the windings involved in the servo that actuates the banana producer ? Or do you think perhaps he is operating on the theory of "The Green Button gives me bananas and the Red Button gives me Shocks"??

Just because we are able to do useful things with our limited understanding of the Universe does not mean that we know exactly why they are so.
Over time, people found out how to understand the world.

For example, fire. Touching fire hurts real bad. Eventually people found out how to douse fires and create fires. Then people found out how to cook with fire and create weapons with fire.

Your view point is "The world is too complicated. I am just going to crawl into a ball and be afraid of everything I don't understand. Momma let me go back in the womb!"
post #126 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
A cesium atom is a cesium by definition..... it is what is it because it is.
You do realize that science is based upon axioms and laws as well?

Define "valid".

You may not understand something... but that does not mean it is wrong.
i must admit that I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I am glad that you cleared that up. I guess I can go sell a box of rocks to the local university and just say"heres a couple pounds of Caesium dudes- CHEAP!" and they will pay me right? In actuality they are going to measure this- using Specific Gravity and Mass. Both of these methods require using the Speed of Light, the Meter, and The Second. AND, this supposedly bedrock measurement of the "Second" is stated as being "counted in a vacuum", which these same scientists admit is an impossible condition.

I really do LOVE the "is because it is" line. Here is another one for you:

Question: What is Light?

Answer: It is the absence of Darkness.

OK- another Question: What is Darkness?

Answer: It is the absence of Light.

Ok- what is Light?

Both of these statements are true, but yet they both prove nothing. This is called "Circular Reasoning", similar to saying something "is because it is". Your statement is true, yet it proves abslutley nothing.
    
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post #127 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post
Over time, people found out how to understand the world.

For example, fire. Touching fire hurts real bad. Eventually people found out how to douse fires and create fires. Then people found out how to cook with fire and create weapons with fire.

Your view point is "The world is too complicated. I am just going to crawl into a ball and be afraid of everything I don't understand. Momma let me go back in the womb!"
That is not my veiwpoint and I consider your remarks to be nothing more than a lame swipe at my intellect based upon complete contrivance. The proper thing for you to do would be to apologize.
    
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post #128 of 200
All those units are reference frames, they are not absolute. How can that be lost upon you?
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post #129 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged_Steel View Post
i must admit that I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I am glad that you cleared that up. I guess I can go sell a box of rocks to the local university and just say"heres a couple pounds of Caesium dudes- CHEAP!" and they will pay me right? In actuality they are going to measure this- using Specific Gravity and Mass. Both of these methods require using the Speed of Light, the Meter, and The Second. AND, this supposedly bedrock measurement of the "Second" is stated as being "counted in a vacuum", which these same scientists admit is an impossible condition.

I really do LOVE the "is because it is" line. Here is another one for you:

Question: What is Light?

Answer: It is the absence of Darkness.

OK- another Question: What is Darkness?

Answer: It is the absence of Light.

Ok- what is Light?

Both of these statements are true, but yet they both prove nothing. This is called "Circular Reasoning", similar to saying something "is because it is". Your statement is true, yet it proves abslutley nothing.
No cesium is an element with a finite amount of protons. If that element does not have the exact amount of protons, it ceases to be cesium. It becomes another element. This was obtained by measuring instruments, experimental data, and observational data.

Light is just light. There are photons and waves of light. Darkness is the absence of these photon and waves of light.

What you are arguing is like hot vs. cold. There is not an object that creates coldness. It is just the lack of heat. However, heat does exist.

It is not circular. Ironically your argument is circular. You are saying "I don't understand the world, therefore the building blocks of knowledge obtained through the scientific method does not exist. Since we don't know everything about the world, everything we learned is invalid. I am right!"
Edited by Riou - 7/26/11 at 12:00pm
post #130 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post
No cesium is an element with a finite amount of protons. If an element does not have the exact amount of protons, it ceases to be cesium. It becomes another element. This was obtained by measuring instruments, experimental data, and observational data.

Light is just light. There are photons and waves of light. Darkness is the absence of these photon and waves of light.

What you are arguing is like hot vs. cold. There is not an object that creates coldness. It is just the lack of heat. However, heat does exist.

It is not circular. Ironically your argument is circular. You are saying "I don't understand the world, therefore the building blocks of knowledge obtained through the scientific method does not exist. Since we don't know everything about the world, everything we learned is invalid. I am right!"
What units are they using for these measurements? The same ones being used to define themsleves, or are there some other better ones that I am unaware of and that you are keeping from everybody?

Also, I am not "arguing" about circular reasoning- I am pointing out that using it as a base for our understanding of the Universe is silly. If you would bother to read my posts I clearly stated that Circular Reasoning is not necessarly "wrong", I actually stated that it can often be "right", but it simply proves nothing.

And again- for your last paragraph I honestly implore of you to refrain from assuming that you know what I think, and then make baseless accusations and insults based upon that which you have imagined. You are really neiher here nor there, a lot of what you say actually supports what I am saying, although you seem to not realize this.
    
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