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Tired of all the misinformation... Can someone help? - Page 2

post #11 of 16
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http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/...ml#post9185566
 
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post #12 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
By what criteria are you defining "way too much"?

LLC alters the Intel specified load line that, by design, drops voltage when current draw increases, in order to ensure that the resulting spike that will happen when a load is removed does not exceed the VID set in the BIOS.

VID (or BIOS vcore) is not meant to be the level of voltage continually delivered to the CPU, it's a maximum cap, spikes and all. By default, idle voltage will be slightly less than this, and load voltage can be much less, by design.

LLC owes it's existence to people misunderstanding what their VID/vcore settings are supposed to do. People saw it as a flaw, and wanted a "fix". Motherboard makers complied. The end result was delusion; people were putting more voltage into their chips, but with a smaller number listed in the BIOS.

There is a more recent justification for LLC that argues that since modern high-end boards have over engineered VRMs compared to Intel's spec, and can probably adjust more rapidly to changing loads with less of a spike, that Intel's load line is too conservative and only results in needlessly high idle voltages during OCing. I can buy this, to an extent.

Completely removing the load line, to the point where there is no negative offset, and no dip under load, is stupid. Even with the best VRM ever put on a board, there is going to be some transient spiking when a load is abruptly removed. So, all this extreme of LLC does is throw more vcore at your chip without you actually telling it to. You may as well have just set vcore higher.

A moderate setting, on a good board, makes sense. At high current draws, the Intel load line can be quite extreme (up to and beyond a tenth of a volt), and it's unlikely that there would be such an enormous spike on a board with a high-quality VRM designed to handle such loads. So, VID and can serve it's purpose with a lesser load line.
One of the most informative posts I've read in a while. Thanks
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post #13 of 16
It really depends how you want to go about it... Some people can overclock and set their voltages to compensate for the drop in voltage under load, but your idle voltage is going to be higher than it really need to be in some cases.

I can tell you first hand for the ASUS p67 boards, do not set LLC to extreme. There is honestly no need to ever exceed Ultra High.

At ultra high, you are still experiencing a small voltage drop under load if you can check with a multimeter or just want to guesstimate with cpu-z. Its very managable and makes overclocking these latest gen i5/i7 chips pretty easy.

At extreme, you are in fact adding voltage under load. ie: 1.35v at idle, 1.38v at load. At higher overlocks > 4.8 GHz, theres a good chance that given what you need to run the chip at idle, you are going to be giving your chip more voltage that you really need at load.

If your VRM settings are in the ballpark and you set LLC to ultra high, your probably at a solid starting point.

As for EIST and c3/c6 states, I am pretty sure i turned all of the lower power states off as I don't ever bother with even putting my PC to sleep/etc. I think it was only the original gigabyte p67 board w/ the early bios that required c3/c6 for turbo to be on ? (could be wrong?) Its either on or off for me.

I have tried with EIST off and on and had pretty much the same result. I would say its more at your discretion. Some people say that it can affect performance, but I saw no indication in regular gaming/usage, maybe I would have seen it in benchmarks when the CPU was initially idle @ 1600mhz.
    
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post #14 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp459 View Post
It really depends how you want to go about it... Some people can overclock and set their voltages to compensate for the drop in voltage under load, but your idle voltage is going to be higher than it really need to be in some cases.

I can tell you first hand for the ASUS p67 boards, do not set LLC to extreme. There is honestly no need to ever exceed Ultra High.

At ultra high, you are still experiencing a small voltage drop under load if you can check with a multimeter or just want to guesstimate with cpu-z. Its very managable and makes overclocking these latest gen i5/i7 chips pretty easy.

At extreme, you are in fact adding voltage under load. ie: 1.35v at idle, 1.38v at load. At higher overlocks > 4.8 GHz, theres a good chance that given what you need to run the chip at idle, you are going to be giving your chip more voltage that you really need at load.

If your VRM settings are in the ballpark and you set LLC to ultra high, your probably at a solid starting point.

As for EIST and c3/c6 states, I am pretty sure i turned all of the lower power states off as I don't ever bother with even putting my PC to sleep/etc. I think it was only the original gigabyte p67 board w/ the early bios that required c3/c6 for turbo to be on ? (could be wrong?) Its either on or off for me.

I have tried with EIST off and on and had pretty much the same result. I would say its more at your discretion. Some people say that it can affect performance, but I saw no indication in regular gaming/usage, maybe I would have seen it in benchmarks when the CPU was initially idle @ 1600mhz.
My computer is the same way, it is either turned on or off. I can't remember the last time I put my computer to sleep. I have C3/C6 turned on just in case I put it to sleep for whatever reason

From what I've read on this thread there seems to be strong support for LLC. Unless someone posts strong evidence against it I'm going to just leave it at ultra high.
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post #15 of 16
I absolutely love how these core series chips sleep. Pretty much turns the PC off.

I've been messing with the LLC and I've found that you can figure out where to set it so your volts maybe fluctuate a tiny .0004 up while under load. I too, was getting additional/jumpy voltage with it on lvl 2 or 1, most likely ultra high and extreme for these last boards discussed.
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post #16 of 16
Like Blameless said, with LLC on what you set in bios = max overshoots or max volts your cpu will see. Suppose you need 1.3v vcore at load to be stable. You set 1.37 bios with LLC off for 1.35v idle and under load droop to 1.30v. If that mobo is following intel specs, the overshoots are .07V, ie (1.37-1.3) (overshoots only visible with a very expensive oscilloscope capable of microsecond waveform recordings, ie you will never see them). So with LLC OFF, setting 1.37 bios = 1.3v at load, and overshoots via vrm circuitry are .07v to 1.37.

With LLC ON, bios setting is 1.31v, idle 1.31v and load 1.3v. Since load vcore is same 1.3v, and vrm circuitry is same, then overshoots (recovery) will be the same .07v to 1.37, just obviously the overshoots are now higher than what you set in bios, but still no difference in 1.37 bios llc off or 1.31 bios llc on.

Bottom line, given same load, LLC on or LLC off, overshoots will be same, ie both to 1.37v in that case, just LLC off lets you specify max overshoots via intel specs, which is only important if you are in a corporation and using mission critical specs, and need a bios setting that = max volts including overshoots.

If you are overclocking, vdroop and vdrop are irrelevant and unnecessary, since you are going to use 1.3 as that is what you need to be stable. And spikes to 1.37 will occur whether you use 1.37 bios LLC off or 1.31 LLC on.

Since load vcore will be same LLC on or off, and vrm circuitry same, hence overshoots same, degradation should be same, assuming you are not using an LLC that makes load vcore actually higher than idle.

So why bother with LLC at all, if using LLC ON in bios at 1.31 is really no different from a degradation standpoint as raising vcore several notches to 1.37 in bios with LLC off? 1) Suppose you are stable at 1.37 bios, 1.3 load using prime 95. Then you find another loading program that loads cpu further, and draws more current, and vdroop goes higher to 1.28, now you crash. Had you used LLC ON, further vdroop would have been ameliorated, and you would have maintained at 1.3 and not crashed, ie overclocking is less hassle. 2) Some may think there is no reason for LLC, but I think there is no reason for vdroop/vdrop...unless your a corporation and need to know that what your setting in bios is max overshoots your cpu will see. I just find varying voltage dips (vdroop) on the fly simply makes overclocking more annoying if using varying loading programs.
Edited by opt33 - 7/27/11 at 2:01pm
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