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[H] The "Unlimited Detail" Guys are Back - Page 18

post #171 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeio View Post
Note: The size of the object in the game does not reflect the size of the data structure used to contain it.

At a minimum, in a 3 dimensional world, any single "point" in the point cloud would require at least a position (3 values, probably floats or doubles, which are several bytes each) plus a color value (another byte minimum). You can't just stick infinite points into an object with no space cost.

Granted, there are obviously optimizations that can be made to store groups of points, but adding extra points is never free.
Note: Those without the patience to learn details about game programming need go no further in this post. No offense, you'll just find it a waste, trying to save you some time. I've included links to common terms in case you want to know more.

Most vertices contain a position (generally 3 floats, 96-bit), texture coordinates (2 floats, 64 bits), and if you want normal mapping sometimes the surface normals are baked into the vertex as well (3 floats, 96 bits). In the case of point clouds you would only need color and position, however, you would needs thousands of times more points than you would need if you were using vertices and rasterization, which is why it would require extraordinary amounts of storage.

This data can be compressed while it is on a storage device but not while it's in the world using either VRAM and/or system RAM.

In addition to storage problems with huge amounts of data, it also means the multiplayer versions of these games could really never have randomized worlds. Games like Minecraft stream the world geometry data to each client, but if the data amount was huge then the bandwidth would need to be equally so.

Another problem you run into while attempting "unlimited detail" is floating point accuracy. If you want to keep getting closer and closer to and object and still have many points close together then at some point a 32-bit floating point number no longer contains enough accuracy to represent the positions for those points. Some ways to help solve this would involve using 64-bit doubles instead of 32-bit floats, or even 128-bit double doubles (extremely rare and unlikely). Using these would give you and extreme amount of accuracy, but then the amount of storage required for some points would be 2-4x as much as usual.

Some might think that another way to attempt to solve this is that you could shrink the size of the world. For example in many games 1.0 units of distance is equal to 1 meter, but you could instead make 1.0 unit of distance equal 100 meters. But while this means the range 0.0-1.0 now can hold the data of a distance of 10000 meters, it also means that every point within that range is now 1/100th as accurate as before.

For anyone curious about what I'm rambling about, here is some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
And more specifically, accuracy problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floatin...uracy_problems

There are ways around floating point accuracy issues by separating the world into quadrants, that way all of your positions are local to that quadrant.:
http://www.floatingorigin.com/pubs/t...tingOrigin.pdf

Even with methods like the one described in my previous link, it is still incredibly difficult to implement such a scheme that allows you to continue zooming very close to something without losing accuracy. Methods like described in that link are generally for letting you maintain accuracy within large worlds. If you wanted the accuracy for very small distances you'd be forced to implement something like this just to have a normal sized world (1 km x 1 km).
Edited by lordikon - 8/4/11 at 6:31am
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post #172 of 214
Bump.

Added a ton of data to last post for anyone willing or interested to learn more about what makes this technology so unlikely for games anytime soon.
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post #173 of 214
And one last bump, I promise

I said "screw it" and just went all out with an entire thread about this crap: http://www.overclock.net/video-games...ne-viable.html
Added it to my sig to hopefully educate other folks as well.
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post #174 of 214
About not being able to play online with randomized maps... Granted, I don't claim to be a "Game Programmer" as you have, and I've only taken a few rudimentary programming courses, but I think the problems you raise are easily avoided. All randomized functions require a seed, regardless of where you take it from. If you give the same exact seed to each player in the multiplayer game, you would then create the same exact map on each machine, yes?

I liked your disclaimer. I'm glad you put it there so others know whether they're worthy of reading your posts.
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post #175 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
About not being able to play online with randomized maps... Granted, I don't claim to be a "Game Programmer" as you have, and I've only taken a few rudimentary programming courses, but I think the problems you raise are easily avoided. All randomized functions require a seed, regardless of where you take it from. If you give the same exact seed to each player in the multiplayer game, you would then create the same exact map on each machine, yes?

I liked your disclaimer. I'm glad you put it there so others know whether they're worthy of reading your posts.
Yea I truly didn't mean any offense by the disclaimer, just like I wouldn't expect to fully understand a detailed post about quantum mechanics.

About the random seed. Yes, you can give out the random seed used to generate the map, but that would only tell you what the map looked like during creation. In a game like Minecraft the world can be changed by people, so after the random generation everything is altered non-randomly. Additionally, even if the world were not able to be altered you would be putting the burden on a client to use the seed to randomly generate a ton of data which should not be done at runtime, they would need to generate all playable space before entering the game. It is for reasons like this that Minecraft doesn't simply send clients the random seed information.
Edited by lordikon - 8/3/11 at 10:42pm
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post #176 of 214
Not everyone wants to play minecraft.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the minecraft example. Why would an unlimited detail engine be any different from a polygon based online game with regards to multiplayer? If an event happens/something changes... you send that info to the other players. Happens in every online game. Whether that be glass breaking or a person being shot, all of this info has to be sent to the other players. It doesn't have to be terabytes worth of data either (you don't send a complete model of a modified wall), it would be the same amount of data as if it was a polygon based game. The game engine would be responsible for taking in the correct information and modifying the environment based on that data. Like... you shoot a bullet at the wall, the wall chips. All you need to do is send the vector and force of the bullet to the other players... their machines will calculate how much of the wall to chip off.

And you're the one who suggested that the map be randomized. It doesn't have to be, the map could be created any way you see fit. But if you did want randomization before you create a map - yes - it is acceptable to force all players to load/compile the map before gameplay. I don't see why that would be a problem or how you could get around that on any game that's "randomized on startup".
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post #177 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
Not everyone wants to play minecraft.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the minecraft example. Why would an unlimited detail engine be any different from a polygon based online game with regards to multiplayer? If an event happens/something changes... you send that info to the other players. Happens in every online game. Whether that be glass breaking or a person being shot, all of this info has to be sent to the other players. It doesn't have to be terabytes worth of data either (you don't send a complete model of a modified wall), it would be the same amount of data as if it was a polygon based game. The game engine would be responsible for taking in the correct information and modifying the environment based on that data. Like... you shoot a bullet at the wall, the wall chips. All you need to do is send the vector and force of the bullet to the other players... their machines will calculate how much of the wall to chip off.

And you're the one who suggested that the map be randomized. It doesn't have to be, the map could be created any way you see fit. But if you did want randomization before you create a map - yes - it is acceptable to force all players to load/compile the map before gameplay. I don't see why that would be a problem or how you could get around that on any game that's "randomized on startup".
Models wouldn't need to be sent, only data that was originally random and since was altered. I refer to minecraft just as an example. Technically you could still send data for blocks and then render each block as many point and then consume no extra bandwidth, but at that point you might as well use rasterization.

Networking was just one potential issue, it isn't necessarily even one of the main hurdles. Storage and spatial partitioning would be top two, but storage and bandwidth are often related, if somebody creates a detailed user generated object and it's gigabytes in size then it's essentially too big to stream in a multiplayer game. Again, the sheer size of the data seems staggering, if as many points exist as they're implying then the game couldn't even fit on a single PC.
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post #178 of 214
I just think that for much of it, storage space isn't that big of an issue (memory would be for sure though). For many of the models, the exact point-cloud darter could be calculated at runtime. For those that need more detail, exact duplicates could be used (like the rock). I keep thinking of that FPS from 2003 that fit on a floppy disk. While yes, it does take a while to load, it's still visually impressive.

Here's that floppy disk game, for those who haven't seen it: http://www.theprodukkt.com/
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post #179 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
[COLOR=Red]Note: [COLOR=Black]Those without the patience to learn details about game programming, or IQs under 110 need go no further in this post..... ....like this just to have a normal sized world (1 km x 1 km).
TLR ...disaffected to read the ramblings of someone with such low emotional intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
I liked your disclaimer. I'm glad you put it there so others know whether they're worthy of reading your posts.
^^^exactly^^^

The discussion is about the possiblities of a future technology (yes we know you think you know all about it allready, but since THEIR version has yet to be released, it can only be deemed "future"), and all Lordikon can bring to the table is nay saying about what is currently possible from his perspective/knowledge base. I'm glad you've created your own thread, because now we can ignore that one and perhaps you'll stop spamming this one?

Open your mind, scientists (with far higher IQ's than you) used to say the world was flat.
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post #180 of 214
Don't u guys think that the tech shown on the tube is similar to Tessalion? I mean polygon does look rigid, but when using the Tessalion it does have more details. (in example Heaven benchmark tool showing the change using tessalion and without it)

Don't u think todays game is made so that as many people can play it? (since if it is unplayeable because its just too powerfull, the company doesn't gain profit.)

No pro or cons with this things.
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