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[H] The "Unlimited Detail" Guys are Back - Page 19

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http://notch.tumblr.com/
Doo dee doo...
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post #182 of 214
**** yeah australia.
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post #183 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by caraboose View Post
Maybe notch should just go back to doing what he knows - minecraft.

At least he explained himself, and agreed that he was wrong on many levels. But again, this isn't his field of study, so I don't know why people are even listening to him at all.
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post #184 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
Maybe notch should just go back to doing what he knows - minecraft.

At least he explained himself, and agreed that he was wrong on many levels. But again, this isn't his field of study, so I don't know why people are even listening to him at all.
Do you work for these guys are what, you seem to be championing their unproven engine.
Why do you dismiss every bit of criticism leveled at this Unlimited Detail engine, even the legitimate?
At the end of the day these guys don't really say anything concrete nor do they have a finished product out. I understand being hopeful for the "next big thing" but how about a little realism and skepticism to temp that?

And Notch DIDN'T "agree that he was wrong on many things", he admitted the possibility that he could be wrong and said he would love to be proven wrong with this kind of technology. Important, if subtle, distinction.
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post #185 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
I just think that for much of it, storage space isn't that big of an issue (memory would be for sure though). For many of the models, the exact point-cloud darter could be calculated at runtime. For those that need more detail, exact duplicates could be used (like the rock). I keep thinking of that FPS from 2003 that fit on a floppy disk. While yes, it does take a while to load, it's still visually impressive.

Here's that floppy disk game, for those who haven't seen it: http://www.theprodukkt.com/
If it's calculated at runtime you have have increased loading times, and you still end up having to store all of the points in memory, so you would need a lot of RAM. As mentioned earlier you can't store vertices/points in a compressed format once in the game, so you're looking at a minimum of 3 floats for position and another 3-4 floats for color, that's 192 bits at the very least per point, or 24 bytes of memory. You would needs thousands of extra points to get the same look as a polygon. Lets just say you need 1000 points to account for the average size triangle primitive. You're average view in a game has probably a triangle count of up to 500,000 triangles. So to just create a hollow hull of points that would represent that mesh you're looking at 500,000,000 points. If each point is a byte we're talking about 12GB of memory, just to hold the point data for a hollow hull that represents only what you may see on-screen at the moment. Resterized games keep all the vertices in memory for loaded meshes and you just swap out what the GPU uses, so there are much more than 500,000 vertices in memory at any given time, for a given scene it may be 10 times as much. So now you're talking about 120GB of RAM just to hold the point information for the area in the immediate vicinity. Bear in mind I'm going off of traditional rasterized games when making these estimations, they may have found some way to optimize their techniques. But until they're willing to talk about it in an interview we have to make some assumptions, and part of that is assuming they're not talking about anything because they don't want to lose investors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDezor View Post
Maybe notch should just go back to doing what he knows - minecraft.

At least he explained himself, and agreed that he was wrong on many levels. But again, this isn't his field of study, so I don't know why people are even listening to him at all.
Did you actually read the full post? He admitted that they can do animation, but that animating even a single player dropped the FPS into the 30's. He stood by his claim on storage, repeated architecture, and most importantly he still said it's a scam.

Look...like Notch I would love to be wrong about all of this, and I would love for some new breakthrough in gaming technology to spring forth and leap forward everything we are capable of. Trust me, I'm a game developer, I would love nothing more than to have awesome new tech we could use. But I'm trying to be realistic here, and these guys just feel disingenuous. I'm not seeing anything in their videos that isn't already known voxel technology, so I don't see what they big deal is here.
Edited by lordikon - 8/4/11 at 6:40am
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post #186 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post
Do you work for these guys are what, you seem to be championing their unproven engine.
Why do you dismiss every bit of criticism leveled at this Unlimited Detail engine, even the legitimate?
At the end of the day these guys don't really say anything concrete nor do they have a finished product out. I understand being hopeful for the "next big thing" but how about a little realism and skepticism to temp that?

And Notch DIDN'T "agree that he was wrong on many things", he admitted the possibility that he could be wrong and said he would love to be proven wrong with this kind of technology. Important, if subtle, distinction.
I'm sorry, I just really, really don't like people drinking hateraid. No yeah, he actually did agree he was wrong on some stuff... Don't only read the intro paragraph from now on, k?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
If it's calculated at runtime you have have increased loading times, and you still end up having to store all of the points in memory, so you would need a lot of RAM. As mentioned earlier you can't store vertices/points in a compressed format once in the game, so you're looking at a minimum of 3 floats for position and another 3-4 floats for color, that's 192 bits at the very least per point, or 24 bytes of memory. You would needs thousands of extra points to get the same look as a polygon. Lets just say you need 1000 points to account for the average size triangle primitive. You're average view in a game has probably a triangle count of up to 500,000 triangles. So to just create a hollow hull of points that would represent that mesh you're looking at 500,000,000 points. If each point is a byte we're talking about 12GB of memory, just to hold the point data for a hollow hull that represents only what you may see on-screen at the moment. Resterized games keep all the vertices in memory for loaded meshes and you just swap out what the GPU uses, so there are much more than 500,000 vertices in memory at any given time, for a given scene it may be 10 times as much. So now you're talking about 120GB of RAM just to hold the point information for the area in the immediate vicinity. Bear in mind I'm going off of traditional rasterized games when making these estimations, they may have found some way to optimize their techniques. But until they're willing to talk about it in an interview we have to make some assumptions, and part of that is assuming they're not talking about anything because they don't want to lose investors.
You're right, I have no idea how they're planning on getting around the storage space requirements. Maybe it's magic, maybe it's bs. But I bet you their demo's aren't run on gigantic workstation behemoths with 1TB of RAM. But hey, they could be, that's probably what I would do.

All I can say is that it will be very interesting to see how they plan to overcome such limitations. I for one am very excited to see the solution to their storage problem.

That's what's got me so riled up. I'm very eager to hear their solution to the problem - which I agree is very daunting; I haven't been able to crack it - but no one else seems to care. Why? They simply state that a solution can't exist. Seriously? Get over yourselves, maybe someone else has figured it out.

Quote:
Did you actually read the full post? He admitted that they can do animation, but that animating even a single player dropped the FPS into the 30's. He stood by his claim on storage, repeated architecture, and most importantly he still said it's a scam.
That technically wasn't their animation demo, so you can't use that as an accurate portrayal of how fast or how slow their version will run. But I shouldn't have to remind you of that, you know that already.
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post #187 of 214
= this thread.

Let's just wait and see, bickering now won't solve this. If this in-fact a new scheme, why use equations from older ones to see if Notch was correct?
post #188 of 214
It's a good thing that Bezier's have begginings and ends, and can be controlled by equations...One could easily produce points to be rendered along the curve without needing vertex data....purely an example.

Color data could be completely UV independant and added locally in a different pass, or on the initial.

Therefore the OLD paradigm of needing 1000*1000 amounts of storage space/memory for this type of rendering is thinking "wholly inside the box" and assuming new technologies would employ old storage processes.

Just saying...
post #189 of 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoxt View Post
It's a good thing that Bezier's have begginings and ends, and can be controlled by equations...One could easily produce points to be rendered along the curve without needing vertex data....purely an example.

Color data could be completely UV independant and added locally in a different pass, or on the initial.

Therefore the OLD paradigm of needing 1000*1000 amounts of storage space/memory for this type of rendering is thinking "wholly inside the box" and assuming new technologies would employ old storage processes.

Just saying...
Creating points on the fly is certainly possible, but they will still consume VRAM, and those points would have to be factored into the spacial partitioning algorithm as well.
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post #190 of 214
Interesting again to watch the video and read the thread. Thanks Lord for providing good real-world insight as to the challenges that exist. That is also to say it is (mostly) normal for most any company to champion their product and brush aside negatives or not even focus on them. I am sure that just like anything, there are major challenges these engine builders have to overcome but hopefully with time they can do that or at least explain the background tech more.

I may dab with some modeling and SDKs but I am far from a programmer in the traditional sense so as to whether this is truly legit or not is beyond what I'll judge for now. It's still incredibly impressive and is nice to see both teams and individuals look for new ways to go past just polygon modeling. I'm excited to see how their development will continue and hopefully eventually, what will make use of it.

Even a video (from last year I think), said they could make their engine run on any console so at least at face value, PC vs Console shouldn't matter. The technical aspects however, are another story and others in this thread have done a great job explaining the real challenges behind this. Thanks OP for sharing!
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