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Is the "unlimited detail" engine viable? - Page 2

post #11 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
The Automontage guys don't try and skirt around the issue, they seem to not only recognize the limitations of voxel/point-cloud, but also work around them. They still have some huge hurdles to overcome, but as you can see in their videos they're still using polygon-based mesh for moving and animated objects. One of the biggest criticisms I have with the unlimited detail videos is there is absolutely nothing moving, but I've heard nothing from them about how they are going to solve that problem.
Alright. So your main gripe (and everyone's else's) is that the automontage people haven't made an official statement asking for funding yet, it's only their 1 page PDF placeholder which is going to be replaced by a more in depth, accurate request. Or perhaps it's because you didn't like the Australian accent of the Unlimited Detail marketing guy in the marketing video. Yes, video's are scary things.

The Unlimited Detail guys haven't disclosed yet how they plan to get around this issue of animated objects. All you can do is take their word for it when they say they have a proprietary system in place. Which, is entirely understandable given that their are competitors are still developing their technology as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Regardless, I'm even somewhat skeptical about the Automontage engine. How do they plan to solve the issue of storage/memory requirements to store so many points?

Voxel-based games are nothing new, I remember playing some as a kid, like Comanche and Xenobots/Ultrabots. They manage a decent looking environment for the time.

Comanche.

Also there is Voxelstein 3D.
No one said it was an entirely new concept. However, the way they're using much of it probably is new and proprietary. Did you complain when the source engine was released? I mean, polygon based games have been around for a while. Surely both voxel-based engines aren't complete BS. Maybe they know something you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
In addition to all of things I originally mentioned, I didn't even gloss over some major features we enjoy in games today, like shadow mapping. With rasterization, shadow mapping often requires drawing parts of a scene more than once, and taking the results from those extra draws and converting them into shadows. I'm curious how they would even begin to implement dynamic shadowing into a voxel/point-cloud engine?
Again, in the video they clearly state that they have solved the problem of shadows and lighting. You're just going to have to believe them on that. The specifics of their technology is proprietary, and I'm sure they're not planning on disclosing any of that proprietary info until they have a complete system in place, because clearly they do have competitors ala automontage.
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post #12 of 40
Thread Starter 
Like I said I'll be more than happy if they've truly managed to solve every downside to using voxels. I've posted threads like this because I'm a skeptic and I'd like others to see the other side of things. They post a magical video stating they've changed everything and that it's revolutionary, I post educated skepticism. You get to decide based on both points of view what you'd like to believe.

The reason I bring up that voxel engines have been around 15+ years is the point that they've never caught on after all of that time. That may not end up mattering, maybe both of these companies have both caught on to something new recently.

There are still plenty of questions I would ask them given the change, such as how they plan to animate things like their grass or shrubbery, this is a very easy technique with rasterization, but they're claiming that a single set of grass blades would be tens of thousands of "atoms", even writing an algorithm to make those look like they're waving in the wind would be a task, let alone making it efficient.

Once again, I hope they pull it off, it would be an amazing change for games and the industry, but I certainly would put any money on it at this point in time.

EDIT: I would like to add that I didn't see any mention of shadow mapping/casting, just a mention of something that looks like ambient occlusion. Not sure if this is real-time or baked into the points themselves.
Edited by lordikon - 8/4/11 at 8:20pm
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post #13 of 40
Notch (for those who don't know, the creator and dominant programmer of Minecraft), posted up two posts on his blog regarding the viability of unlimited detail engines. I thought he explained it pretty simply, and addresses why the "unlimited detail" engines cannot simply be done practically by even the most current gaming computers.

The two blog posts are here:

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam

and here:

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8423008...its-not-a-scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notch
And a final word to the engineers who worked on this: Great job, I am impressed! But please tell your marketing department to stop lying.
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post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
but I certainly would put any money on it at this point in time.
It seems the Australian Government thinks different from you

http://www.commercialisationaustrali...20Ltd.aspx#top

Note the .gov.au so it's no scam or master plan to fool us all. Sometimes technology it's just like this, quicker, lighter, smaller and cheaper, it happens all the time, look at PC's, TV's, phones, etc.
post #15 of 40
They obviously use instancing. They store a tree's data once and reuse it to render it everywhere. They could use fractals and pseudo random techniques to render certain elements like foliage, grain of dirts and etc that require almost no storage. Search techniques like ray-tracing, point clouds, ray marching always had the advantage that it perform better than rasterization as the amount of displayed data grows. But it requires precomputed spacial structures (octree, kdtree, bvh). The biggest challenge is animation. Everything is very static, I wonder how will they add animations to the environment. Will it follow the wind? Will it be destructible?
post #16 of 40
Nice post OP.
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post #17 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchLinuxFTW View Post
Notch (for those who don't know, the creator and dominant programmer of Minecraft), posted up two posts on his blog regarding the viability of unlimited detail engines. I thought he explained it pretty simply, and addresses why the "unlimited detail" engines cannot simply be done practically by even the most current gaming computers.

The two blog posts are here:

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam

and here:

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8423008...its-not-a-scam
Yes I linked to these in my original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black RL View Post
It seems the Australian Government thinks different from you

http://www.commercialisationaustrali...20Ltd.aspx#top

Note the .gov.au so it's no scam or master plan to fool us all. Sometimes technology it's just like this, quicker, lighter, smaller and cheaper, it happens all the time, look at PC's, TV's, phones, etc.
Governments fund vaporware projects all the time. Just because they're investing in this doesn't mean it will see the light of day (at least in the gaming industry). However it does lend more credibility to the project, which is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patlefort View Post
They obviously use instancing. They store a tree's data once and reuse it to render it everywhere. They could use fractals and pseudo random techniques to render certain elements like foliage, grain of dirts and etc that require almost no storage. Search techniques like ray-tracing, point clouds, ray marching always had the advantage that it perform better than rasterization as the amount of displayed data grows. But it requires precomputed spacial structures (octree, kdtree, bvh). The biggest challenge is animation. Everything is very static, I wonder how will they add animations to the environment. Will it follow the wind? Will it be destructible?
Randomization could indeed be used for some geometry, however the results of the random elements would still need to be stored out in memory as long as they remained in-view, or be recalculated every frame.

And instancing is nothing new, but with polygon-based models it's fairly cheap to scale or rotate each instance. With highly detailed point-clouds there are so many points that scaling and rotating becomes a huge expense, unless they've found some new technique to get around that somehow.
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post #18 of 40
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post #19 of 40
If this is real, I have been officially blown away.
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post #20 of 40
In 5-10 years (probably closer to 10 years) I can see this being viable. If the computational power of GPU continues to increase at the current pace, we'll have 7-10 times faster GPUs by then, and 256-512GB of ram will probably be the norm, so storage problems also solves itself. I'm sure rendering that 500000 points will not be a problem. But yea, I don't think these guys will make any viable anytime soon.
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