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Is the "unlimited detail" engine viable? - Page 4

post #31 of 40
In order to search for the atom to display, they'll have to calculate it's position. From what Notch had posted, it seems like for static objects that's not a problem, but for animation and deformation it will take a lot of processing power. I think that this can be done in 5-10 years down the line when we have even more powerful GPUs, but not right now.
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post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxborough View Post

The proof is with their tech demo... and the 41 minute interview.
Stating numbers without the culling process, was a speculation, yes, but it was just to show how it could be possible, I said "tiny bit of research" as I don't like speculating. I will still speculate a small amount just to explain where I'm going with my point. I understand AMD, Intel etc... have intelligent guys, but Bruce Dell has evidently found a niche in where current game design hasn't been directed towards.
I'm not trying to pull anyone down here, I'm just saying, there's no point in speculating how they did it, cause we'll never know until they're finished. Also, yeah, of course "if they patented it" that isn't true, and they probably have. But it doesn't stop someone applying it to something else using a clever re-brand or what have you.
I don't want anyone to feel insulted, I just want to say, this is real, that is all!

Their demo has nothing about how culling works. It is a static image... how do you know pre-emptively know what part of an enemy is visible as it goes behind a tree?

I haven't watched the demo in the awhile... but they do state system and resource utilization of the demo?

Where is the peer-reviewed analysis? Until that point, the demo and his interview is all speculation and unsupported.

We can speculate because we know how things work and fundamental limits of algorithms. Take a computer graphics class and you will begin to understand the complexities that have been discussed for decades.

Yes, it does. Patent cover concepts and ideas.... you cannot "rebrand" something if their is a patent on the fundamental idea.
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post #33 of 40
Forgive me if this sounds silly, but is there no possibility of combining the two and rendering close objects with point clouds and distant objects with polygons, or is the entire scene constrained to one rendering method?
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post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTMaXPoWeR View Post

Forgive me if this sounds silly, but is there no possibility of combining the two and rendering close objects with point clouds and distant objects with polygons, or is the entire scene constrained to one rendering method?

I wonder the same thing. I am not in graphics design at all but it does seem if you can combine the two then you would have something on your hands. I think this is really what they are doing. The company mentions they are taking polygon models and converting them.

If this is the case to me it would seem you could very well leave distant objects unconverted and as you move closer they are converted to the unlimited point models that we see. I am not sure and am just speculating but I know if I was looking to make details more lifelike but couldn't use a supercomputer to do it I would certainly be looking to find ways to make distant objects easier to process in a similar way to how we do now.
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post #35 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTMaXPoWeR View Post

Forgive me if this sounds silly, but is there no possibility of combining the two and rendering close objects with point clouds and distant objects with polygons, or is the entire scene constrained to one rendering method?

This can be done somewhat. The Atomontage engine video I posted in the OP renders moving objects using rasterization (which is what almost all modern games use), and voxels for the static parts of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxborough View Post

I know this thread is now classed as "old", but I would just like to mention a few things about "unlimited detail" and my viewpoint on certain aspects of research.
All of the points mentioned in this thread are totally inaccurate, I've almost read through them all, got frustrated reading them. Euclideon as a company derrived their name from the mathmatical algorithm the "Euclidean". I'll leave anyone to google exactly what that means.
Basically, their algorithm allows each individual pixel on the screen to go in search for "data" so the value is just 1, for each pixel, instead of rendering everything that is in the background and foreground, it only renders each individual pixel. They're running one single core to process their "demo". Not even touching the graphics card, and that algorithm, is how they do it. It IS brand new technology in terms of how the algorithm is applied, it SHOULD take off, and anyone disputing it obviously doesn't get how they've done it or the implications of such an algorithm.
There's an interview with Bruce Dell on YouTube, it's 41 minutes long, explains EVERYTHING, I'll leave you to find that also, we're nerds here, we can find stuff on the internet. So, to the original poster, I'm sorry to say, all your efforts in disputing this, or explaining this, have just been totally negated. This is one of the major problems I have with OCN, people go to the extreme to prove their point, but the horrible thing is, you can look for ANYTHING on the internet, to back up your point, everything and anything can almost apply, if you look for it, generally, you can find it.
I have thousands of examples of this happening, I won't go through them all. I'll list a couple just to prove my point:
My Girlfriend does Fashion/Art at College (I'm just finishing university personally, so don't judge me at that level), she struggles finding things on google, has spent weeks and weeks looking (finding irrelevant information, but trying to apply it).... Within 5 minutes of me googling, I found everything relevant to her projects, just from knowing HOW TO GOOGLE, and obtaining the correct information.
My friend on Facebook wanted to know about where, how what and when to do her GRE (Graduate Readiness Examination), with one google search, I found everything, including an e-book of practice questions. She'd spent hours looking for this sort of information. I took 5 seconds and sent it to her, she was shocked.http://www.overclock.net/t/1083517/is-the-unlimited-detail-engine-viable/20
This is where it gets irritating, the fact it takes so little time, to receive so much information, how do you know what is relevant and what isn't? Regardless of how much you know as an individual? I never claim to know anything until I'm 100% satisfied with the information I have found. For example, there's no disputing pure mathematics, you can't, it exists without cognitive thought. Same applies here with what Bruce Dell is trying to explain. They know their claims are brash, they know they're hard to believe, and that is why there's so little information about them, they can't stand "haters", that will go to the same lengths as this thread, just to dispute all their hard work.
He's poured all his money, and his life into this, it has paid off with Government Grants, so who do these people think they are, disputing their work? They can't give up all information on how this works, or other companies will rip them off, it makes sense, does it not? I don't fully understand how they've done this, but applying algorithms to an individual pixel to produce a single value to reduce processing power is genius. I've done the maths for how much processing power it could take, I'll list a tiny amount of my findings:
Take the resolution 1080p which equates to: 2073600 pixels
Take the average calculations of a computer: Varies a lot, but it's way over 2073600 calculations, more like thousands of times more: 2 076 300 000
This essentially proves how this algorithm could work!

Did you even read my post? First of all I get the gist on how it works, and that doesn't change any of my points about things like animation. I listened to the 40 minute video and he offers nothing to refute any of the points brought up by people like John Carmack for things like animation, all he has to say is "just trust me". Give me a break, people have made voxel rendering engines for 20+ years that can do stuff like this, what is amazing is that every time it happens the community flips out and thinks things are about to change completely. I would love to be wrong about this, but for now I see this as vaporware. There is a far greater chance that things move in the direction of ray-tracing in about 10-15 years.
Edited by lordikon - 2/12/12 at 5:26pm
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post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxborough View Post

Algorithm's are insane, they can do wonders, I used to do Civil Engineering at University, and some of the algorithm's they used to calculate an entire building's structual loads, is insane. It's things like that, which make me really consider the fact "this is real".

I'm sorry...but what? Algorithms are isane? There is nothing insane about them. They're entirely logical and devoid of magic. Yes, they can do wonderful things, but an algorithm is, by definition, merely a process for solving a problem...saying an algorithm can do wonders is inherently the same as saying "problem solving can do wonders." Well, yeah, solving problems is pretty wonderful. rolleyes.gif

My point is that you can't just say, "this is possible because algorithms!!!!111!!1!!!!"

Also, in response to your point about them getting government grants and devoting their life to this project, which means it must be real...governments give out grants all the time just to prove that something is unfeasible...and people have spent lifetimes working on projects that never turn out. It's the way of the world, my friend.
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post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Yes I linked to these in my original post. smile.gif
Governments fund vaporware projects all the time. Just because they're investing in this doesn't mean it will see the light of day (at least in the gaming industry). However it does lend more credibility to the project, which is good.

Yeah that is true, the Australian government are also giving grants for not so brilliant causes.....For eg a guy got a grant for creating a better surfboard...I don't know the details.
    
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post #38 of 40
i remember this
still waiting for the revolution
maybe it will come with the next console generation
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post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatelolcats View Post

i remember this
still waiting for the revolution
maybe it will come with the next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next console generation

Fixed tongue.gif If we are lucky we should have the unlimited detail engine by the time we are 60 years old (assuming you are 20 years old now)
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post #40 of 40
This is actually quite viable, what they shown running on a laptop was impressive and sculling atoms less then a pixel makes a lot of sense and in most cases is based on what current forward and differed renderers are doing currently.

Storage is not that big of a issue either, compression methods coupled with procedural generation would work wonders for this.

My biggest gripe is do we really need it?

Tessellation is here, it can generate hundreds of millions of extra polygons and doesn't require any where near the software compute power that this will.

Developers just need to learn to not over tessellate surfaces that do not need it and concentrate on the ones that do, once they learn that then the need for unlimited detail engine will be completely eradicated.
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