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post #31 of 52
^^ See I wish people would actually READ the sources I posted, then somebody could have fact checked me.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/364...ked/index.html

That was a typo. The 6870 is running @ 1150 on the memory in the article, not 1050 as I mistakenly wrote.

6850 - 1050mhz (core) and 1175mhz (memory)
6870 - 1035mhz (core) and 1150mhz (memory)
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
Real world difference @ 1080p between overclocked 6850 (1050/1175) and overclocked 6870 (1035/1150):

ResidentEvil5 - 127 vs 133 fps
HAWX - 101 vs 105 fps
Mafia 2 - 74 vs 79 fps
Lost Planet 2 - 40 vs 43 fps
AvP - 48 vs 52 fps
SFIV - 232 vs 239 fps
FarCry2 - 112 vs 125 fps (evens out considerably with AA)
BatmanAA - 159 vs 156 fps

The results speak for themselves - I can't imagine how one could argue that spending a 30-50% price premium validates the difference in results above, which are all maxed at the OP's resolution.

In my opinion: End Thread/
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

But seeing as nobody followed the link (or at least read it accurately), as I predicted would be the case (since everybody just HAS their opinions that are rigid and dogmatic on this site), and thus the mistake I wrote up is taken for granted and debated on its mistaken premise.

I'll edit the post for accuracy ... and allow me to apologize for my mistake.

Given this change of context, I NOW restate my position that I find it VERY hard to justify spending the massive price premium on such insignificant real-world results differences.
Edited by willibj - 8/6/11 at 4:00am
post #32 of 52
You are also posting overclocked results, that aren't even gaurantee'd either. I haven't seen very many 1050MHz core clocked HD6850's. From what I remember from ACTUAL owners of those cards, the HD6870's had a tendancy to scale a little further, not to mention the increase in shaders.

I'll say it again, buy the strongest single GPU card you can afford. The OP is thinking about going with either card, that means he can afford the HD6870, so that is clearly the obvious choice.

By your logic, a GTS450 isn't too terribly much slower than a GTX460. A GTX460 isn't that much slower than a 470 (the list keeps going on up to the GTX580). As such, your logic is flawed. If he's got say $150 (random number) to spend on a GPU, why suggest a $100 one, when a $142 one is clearly the superior card?
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post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by willibj View Post
^^ See I wish people would actually READ the sources I posted, then somebody could have fact checked me.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/364...ked/index.html

That was a typo. The 6870 is running @ 1150 on the memory in the article, not 1050 as I mistakenly wrote.

6850 - 1050mhz (core) and 1175mhz (memory)
6870 - 1035mhz (core) and 1150mhz (memory)
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
Real world difference @ 1080p between overclocked 6850 (1050/1175) and overclocked 6870 (1035/1150):

ResidentEvil5 - 127 vs 133 fps
HAWX - 101 vs 105 fps
Mafia 2 - 74 vs 79 fps
Lost Planet 2 - 40 vs 43 fps
AvP - 48 vs 52 fps
SFIV - 232 vs 239 fps
FarCry2 - 112 vs 125 fps (evens out considerably with AA)
BatmanAA - 159 vs 156 fps

The results speak for themselves - I can't imagine how one could argue that spending a 30-50% price premium validates the difference in results above, which are all maxed at the OP's resolution.

In my opinion: End Thread/
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

But seeing as nobody followed the link (or at least read it accurately), as I predicted would be the case (since everybody just HAS their opinions that are rigid and dogmatic on this site), and thus the mistake I wrote up is taken for granted and debated on its mistaken premise.

I'll edit the post for accuracy ... and allow me to apologize for my mistake.

Given this change of context, I NOW restate my position that I find it VERY hard to justify spending the massive price premium on such insignificant real-world results differences.


I apologize; given your post was so detailed I took your word for it given that you seem to make constructive posts and have decent rep. I should have checked anyway.

Anyway, there is still a difference. The HD6850 is still clocked higher on both the cores and the memory - 4.7 Ghz vs 4.6 Ghz for the HD6870. And given that the HD6870 has even more cores, it will be even more bottlenecked by the memory bandwidth available.

That is the only explanation for Batman Arkham Asylum to perform better on the HD6850; a difference in 15Mhz on the cores is not enough to offset the difference in core count, the difference here is the memory bandwidth.

Anyway, the memory frequency they achieved on the HD6850 may not be possible with all cards, as Anand found out. With their cards they could not go over 1150 (4.6 Ghz) without artifacting, so you are indeed looking at a best case scenario.

Here is the article from Anand, along with the quote from the conclusion on memory bandwidth:


Quote:
We’ll start with 6850 overclocking in general. While we only use a subset of our most performance-hungry games in overclocking testing, it’s clear that 6850 overclocking isn’t going to be a simple case of overclocking the core first, and getting what you can out of the memory second. In fact it looks to be the opposite: the 6850’s big performance pickup from overclocking is due to the memory overclock first, then the core overclock. As a result we’re less concerned with core overclocking (and overvolting) as we are with memory overclocking. Overclocking both is going to be necessary to compete with the 6870 in shader-bound games, but even the memory overclock alone can be quite potent.

Edited by tpi2007 - 8/6/11 at 7:20am
 
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post #34 of 52
I have the same card in the article, and I reached 1030 @ 1.25volts. All of the research I did on the card found the owners surpassing 1000 mhz once 1.2v or so were put in. The card is a particularly good 6850 with its cooling solution.

Anyways, the results really do speak for themselves, even if the card only reaches 1000/1150 (which I would posit that most if not all COULD do), its performance would still equal a 6870 stock, and it's price is vastly attractive. Mine indeed starts to artifact with the memory above 1172, so I leave it a 1162, but the difference between 1150 and 1162 just isn't anything to write home about, in the real world. The same between clock speeds of 980 and 1030 - the 50mhz just doesn't make that much of a difference overall, hence why I choose 962mhz. Performance is awesome.

The logic is NOT flawed for people living in the real-world wherein £40 is a weeks food, and a 3-7% performance difference in games translates to the same basic settings. Game performance doesn't scale performance wise on an even continuum. Any game based on a specific engine will play at the same basic specs between a 6850 and 6870 when overclocked to these regions. If it is playing well on the 6870 it will on the 6850. If not, the same situation.

The logic comes in total value for money, not absolute performance. The "superiority" of the higher card is by a few percentage points, and the price premium is 30-40%. Your example of the gts450/gtx460/gtx470 is flawed, it implies an equal gradient in price and performance. This is not the case. The price AND performance difference must be simultaneously weighed by the consumer. Where the price increase is justified in price, then the logical purchase is the performance card. If the actual performance difference is extremely slight, and yet the price premium absurd, then the logical purchase may change, depending on consumer. Think about CPU's in this case, the purchase of an i7 950 or 960 with a large price difference (when it was like 30% more). Both would overclock to similar levels, perhaps the 960 a little higher for being binned, but real world performance differences between 4.4ghz and 4.5ghz are not worth a price premium to the average user.

To be fair and honest, the performance difference between the 6850 and 6870 (when both are overclocked, taking the Tweaktown example, which is the card in question) is perhaps one of the smallest performance gaps in memory for ATI/AMD GPU's of a similar "family" in recent memory (thinking 4850/4870, 5750/5770, 5850/5870, 6950/6970). I went to purchase a 6870, had the money, was in effectively the same shoes as the OP, and upon seeing the Tweaktown article I decided upon my card. I saved about US$50 at the time, and that let me upgrade my CPU cooler to my Dark Knight. MY CPU overclock only increased slightly, but temps were down by 5degrees or so from my earlier cooler. The point is that there are always good uses of money and wastes of money, and such a perspective is subjective. Simply buying the most expensive you can afford is an oversimplification that just doesn't logically add up for a large percentage of the consumer base, even Overclock.net users.
Edited by willibj - 8/6/11 at 10:28am
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by willibj View Post
I have the same card in the article, and I reached 1030 @ 1.25volts. All of the research I did on the card found the owners surpassing 1000 mhz once 1.2v or so were put in. The card is a particularly good 6850 with its cooling solution.

Anyways, the results really do speak for themselves, even if the card only reaches 1000/1150 (which I would posit that most if not all COULD do), its performance would still equal a 6870 stock, and it's price is vastly attractive. Mine indeed starts to artifact with the memory above 1172, so I leave it a 1162, but the difference between 1150 and 1162 just isn't anything to write home about, in the real world. The same between clock speeds of 980 and 1030 - the 50mhz just doesn't make that much of a difference overall, hence why I choose 962mhz. Performance is awesome.

The logic is NOT flawed for people living in the real-world wherein £40 is a weeks food, and a 3-7% performance difference in games translates to the same basic settings. Game performance doesn't scale performance wise on an even continuum. Any game based on a specific engine will play at the same basic specs between a 6850 and 6870 when overclocked to these regions. If it is playing well on the 6870 it will on the 6850. If not, the same situation.

The logic comes in total value for money, not absolute performance. The "superiority" of the higher card is by a few percentage points, and the price premium is 30-40%. Your example of the gts450/gtx460/gtx470 is flawed, it implies an equal gradient in price and performance. This is not the case. The price AND performance difference must be simultaneously weighed by the consumer. Where the price increase is justified in price, then the logical purchase is the performance card. If the actual performance difference is extremely slight, and yet the price premium absurd, then the logical purchase may change, depending on consumer. Think about CPU's in this case, the purchase of an i7 950 or 960 with a large price difference (when it was like 30% more). Both would overclock to similar levels, perhaps the 960 a little higher for being binned, but real world performance differences between 4.4ghz and 4.5ghz are not worth a price premium to the average user.

To be fair and honest, the performance difference between the 6850 and 6870 (when both are overclocked, taking the Tweaktown example, which is the card in question) is perhaps one of the smallest performance gaps in memory for ATI/AMD GPU's of a similar "family" in recent memory (thinking 4850/4870, 5750/5770, 5850/5870, 6950/6970). I went to purchase a 6870, had the money, was in effectively the same shoes as the OP, and upon seeing the Tweaktown article I decided upon my card. I saved about US$50 at the time, and that let me upgrade my CPU cooler to my Dark Knight. MY CPU overclock only increased slightly, but temps were down by 5degrees or so from my earlier cooler. The point is that there are always good uses of money and wastes of money, and such a perspective is subjective. Simply buying the most expensive you can afford is an oversimplification that just doesn't logically add up for a large percentage of the consumer base, even Overclock.net users.


Your argument is valid, but you are forgetting two things:

1. the Tweaktown comparison you are referring to when making your argument is not fair, like I pointed out in the previous post. Therefore the smaller performance gap you are referring to is artificial, and it would be bigger if the HD6870's memory bandwidth was overclocked to the same levels (or the HD6850 was not overclocked to a level Anand found not to be stable with several HD6850 cards) - and don't forget the HD6870 benefits even more from higher bandwidth as it has more cores to feed.

2. As I said before, you may have a point, depending on the price difference. But from what I'm seeing on Newegg, the cheapest HD6850, from Powercolor, is selling for $159.99 ($139.99 with rebate) , while the cheapest HD6870, from Sapphire, is selling for $174.99 ($154.99 with rebate), which translates to a $20 difference - or even lower $15, after rebates, less than half or more than three times less of what you saved.

Having these two points in consideration, I still think the HD6870 is the better choice if he has the budget for it and the price is right.
Edited by tpi2007 - 8/6/11 at 11:40am
 
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post #36 of 52
I own a 5850 and 2 5870s and I have play at 1680x1050 rez. I know that 5850 and 5870 are better for DX10 games, but 6850 and 6870 are better for DX11 games. So with this said I would for a 6870 or higher.

EDIT
The difference between the 5870 and 6870 is about 5-10 fps for DX10 and 5870 wins.
For DX11 is about the same but 6870 wins.
Edited by dixson01974 - 8/6/11 at 12:12pm
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post #37 of 52
Rebuttals to your point:

1. The difference of 25mhz more on the 6850's memory I'm sure would make very little real-world difference, even if it were not the case that the 6870's memory has tighter timings than the 6850's which makes the gap less significant, if at all in the first place. Statistical differences of 25mhz difference when we are talking frequencies of 1150-1175 mhz are infinitesimal in the real world, and again, that's assuming that the timings are the same, which they are not.

Calling it "unfair" is kinda funny really - the comparison is SO close, that this special pleading is intrinsically clutching at straws at this point. It makes little to no difference, and the stock settings are there as a comparison too.

2. You are looking at Newegg. The OP is in the UK. Price comparisons SHOULD come as those available to the OP, and not those that are essentially irrelevant.

That said, I did some further research in the UK and found a 6870 for as little as £112 on the same site that my suggested card came from - which WOULD be a logical choice for our OP, since this price difference is now justifying the purchase of the 6870, except that it is a blower-style reference cooler which are obnoxiously loud.

The Asus DirectCU version is £114 or so (on the same site), and this I believe is a card that has a good after-market cooler AND allows for voltage changes in overclocking.


OP - here's that link.
*Deleted link for fear of fake predatory website*

Further exploration, and here's another great option, if you budget stretches to £148:
*Deleted link for fear of fake predatory website*

(Note - none of the prices quoted include VAT or shipping)
(2nd Note - I CANNOT vouch for this company, I've no experience with them personally, but see no intrinsic problem)
Edited by willibj - 8/7/11 at 9:40am
post #38 of 52
The context we are forgetting, again, is of course that the OP specifically stated his gaming requirements which were quite low. We can push and push and push up the costs involved to the "best" option, but if it's simply more than he needs, then it's all been for naught. Just a thought ...
post #39 of 52
why has this thread became a discussion on OC a 6850 vs 6870. The OP clearly stated that he wants either or, and never mentioned anything about OC. Not everyone knows or good or successful at OC. Just because you like to state so many 'articles' and 'facts' about which OC better doesn't help the OP at all.

Maybe he doesn't know how to OC anything or just want to keep everything stock and have the best GPU he can afford right now which is the 6870 in his option list. Yes the 6850 when OC can be as good or better than 6870, but what if he/she doesn't know how to? then all your arguments are out the door. and it can simply be said the same thing that a OC 6870 can beat this and that.... etc.

So the the OP get which ever you like in your budget...
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post #40 of 52
EDIT: Oh, topic has changed i see
Edited by hat1324 - 8/6/11 at 12:43pm
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