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GTX470 915mhz OC Versus GTX580 stock clocks? - Page 6

post #51 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfgar View Post
I'm pretty sure my SOC won't have any trouble reaching 950MHz at 1.087. Worst case scenario I'd have to flash it to higher voltage.

Simple answer: GTX 580 performance for less money...Plus a 580 cannot gain a 50% OC on the core clock so the difference between an OCed 580 and an OCed 470 will be much smaller than stock vs stock.

I dunno the prices of water cooling these days but if you can get a $200 470 and a $300 CPU & GPU liquid cooling solution then you're pretty much set. Not only will you be able to OC the crap out of them, your system will also be silent.
Indeed, price-performance wise it makes sense. But what if you don't care about price?
470 OC to 900 is almost as good as a stock 580. But again, just like yours can hit even 1050 on air, so can any 580, and a 470 at 1050 is much slower than a 580 at 1050 (or even 950).

I just feel it is silly that some people keep posting on a kind of unrealistic self-satisfying mood: "yeah, my 470 is much faster than a regular Joe's , more expensive, 580" While, most OCNer's 580 is faster than your 470 cause they are also OCed, so?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the OP and even find interesting to read about the insane 3Dmark11 scores that some of you folks get. :Cheers:

I just feel there is no need for the ego-massage that some guys keep insisting on.
If you got a 470 SLI, you got a monster system and should be happy about it. There's no need to go rubbing each others shoulders and saying: look how smart we are, we spent less money and got a system that is almost as good as a much more expensive one at stock
One 470 should be enough for any game, no? (maybe you would have to tweak a bit the settings on some but, I gamed on a 8600 for some 2 years, even after the 200 series was out and had loads of fun )

Lets all be happy with what we have OCN!
Some people like cost-benefit, some don't care so much about cost and only care about benefit. Whichever you prefer is just as well

On a side note, there are many 580s that are so silent as to make watercooling unecessary. Mine are (I run them at their stock 832/2100 at 1.0 volt). Also the DCII is very silent (I had one) if hard to fit in most cases in SLI. And again, you can also get ref. 580s and watercool them too, if you don't care about price

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfgar View Post
Plus a 580 cannot gain a 50% OC on the core clock
Yes they can.
They can reach even more than that: how about 1300/1300 on LN2
Edited by Ulver - 8/7/11 at 9:48pm
post #52 of 118
lol...



Standard air cooling with LN2.
    
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post #53 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Hmmm ... well ... 10788 GPU score is extremely impressive for 560ti's, esp. at only 1050c. Does he claim that they can do more, and if so, how much more?
I'm not sure. IIRC he said his Hawk could clock higher than his EVGA cards. Considering some people can do 1030+ on air with Hawks though, I wouldn't be surprised.

If I had to guess, the 560 Ti's high texture fillrate and extremely high shader clocks (2100MHz) are probably what keep it competitive here. I'm thinking around 1075-1100 core would be where it contends with the 580.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulver View Post
Indeed, price-performance wise it makes sense. But what if you don't care about price?
470 OC to 900 is almost as good as a stock 580. But again, just like yours can hit even 1050 on air, so can any 580, and a 470 at 1050 is much slower than a 580 at 1050 (or even 950).
Haha, no 470 is getting anywhere near 1050 on air, or water for that matter. Maybe liquid nitro?

Quote:
I just feel it is silly that some people keep posting on a kind of unrealistic self-satisfying mood: "yeah, my 470 is much faster than a regular Joe's , more expensive, 580" While, most OCNer's 580 is faster than your 470 cause they are also OCed, so?
True. I think when it comes to comparing "max" benches, some perspective is needed.

Considering the kind of clocks required just to reach a stock 580's speed, it's far from being a given. It seems a lot of people are taking extreme OCs for granted. Not every 470 is going to hit 800, let alone 900, and an even smaller percent will do it within acceptable voltage ranges.

I mean, sure you can run a BIOS mod to up the voltage... but that's not without its risks. I know I wouldn't want to game on my cards for extended periods of time running 1.2v, even if they were "bench stable."

And if you don't actually game/fold/whatever using those max clocks, then that "stock 580" performance is purely hypothetical.

The 580 is still the undisputed king. It's just fun to see how the rest stack up.
Edited by Booty Warrior - 8/7/11 at 9:42pm
post #54 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallaTheFeared View Post
lol...


Standard air cooling with LN2.
hehe, didn't check the pics, my bad!

Anyways, you can reach near 1GHz on core clock on air with a 580 gtx. Here on OCN I've seen many. And that didn't change what I said, above 50% core on a 580gtx is possible.

But that is also beside the point: if you OC a 470 to its max (air, water, LN2, ice cream) it will still be slower than a moderately overclocked 580 gtx (above 900MHz). And most 580s can reach those speeds with a bid of voltage increase.

And yeah, Booty Warrior pretty much nailed it, right there.

Again, I am NOT posting to bash the 470 (which is a great card) or the OP and the majority of people here. I am only criticising the ego-massaging that a few have displayed.
Edited by Ulver - 8/7/11 at 9:53pm
post #55 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindhouse View Post
Sorry, but not really. 448 processor cores VS 512..... Overclock or not, you can't magically get those 64 cores.

If it was that easy to get the GTX 580 performance, nobody would pay 450-500$ for a GTX 580.
Thats not true at all. Sure an overclocked 470 at max OC can touch a 580, but you are still able to OC a 580 ad leave every other card in the dust.
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post #56 of 118
I think the 470 serves its purpose segment well. It is a rather cheap card, with more than 1gb of memory. It fits into the 1200p and below niche well.

I think booty also missed the point.

Due to its 1.28gb vram limit it is not meant to be a high resolution card. That is an area for 1.5gb+ cards, which the 470 is not. Nor does it have any variation of it that would cover that segment.

What it is for, and where it does well, is at 1200p and below. Now his thoughts were that you'd need 900 core to reach stock 580 performance and that most people wouldn't run their card that high 24/7.

I used to do just that, when I had one card I'd run 900 core (but that was also in the winter). It is summer now, and I have two 470s. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree having two 580s at 1200p and less is overkill, right?

Well instead of spending $1000+ for two 580s at 1200p or less, I got two 470s, put them under water, at a cost right around that of a single reference 580. Doing so I got performance that exceeded a single 580 at my res, and the extra benefits that come with water cooling as well.

However I don't think anyone here with 470s is saying their cards are better than 580s, just that for their needs, and at their resolution, the 470 offers far better cost vs performance ratios and provided the performance they need to run most games out there maxed out. With the option of going SLI for still less than the cost of a single reference 580, at 1200p it just makes more sense.


I don't see how anyone could argue the value of 470s at 1200p and below, which is the market segment it was released for.

Edit: Here are two of the more demanding gpu games on the market that I know of. This is at 860 core/2000mem 1087v normally I game between 750 and 850 core.



470s weren't the best cards when they came out, 460s offered killer price vs performance that the 470/480s couldn't really touch. However since 470s hit EOL and 5xx came out the prices have dropped quite a bit on them. You can get them new (if you can find them) for around $200 or less, and used ones with serial warranties can be had for less than $150. I just picked up one here for $115 - I don't know how fast it can go, but it is more than capable of the clocks I was running before. At their current pricing they offer compelling performance for their price, for those of us on a budget they make a lot of sense. No, they aren't faster than the $500 cards, but they don't need to be, because you can get two of the for less than the cost of one high end card - and that is where their value comes in. 1080p gaming doesn't need 1.5gb of vram, but having more than 1gb can help in several titles.

Here is another example, The Witcher 2:







I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to run those settings on a single 580 @ 1080p.
Edited by BallaTheFeared - 8/7/11 at 11:04pm
    
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post #57 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallaTheFeared View Post
I think the 470 serves its purpose segment well. It is a rather cheap card, with more than 1gb of memory. It fits into the 1200p and below niche well.

I think booty also missed the point.

Due to its 1.28gb vram limit it is not meant to be a high resolution card. That is an area for 1.5gb+ cards, which the 470 is not. Nor does it have any variation of it that would cover that segment.

What it is for, and where it does well, is at 1200p and below. Now his thoughts were that you'd need 900 core to reach stock 580 performance and that most people wouldn't run their card that high 24/7.

I used to do just that, when I had one card I'd run 900 core (but that was also in the winter). It is summer now, and I have two 470s. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree having two 580s at 1200p and less is overkill, right?

Well instead of spending $1000+ for two 580s at 1200p or less, I got two 470s, put them under water, at a cost right around that of a single reference 580. Doing so I got performance that exceeded a single 580 at my res, and the extra benefits that come with water cooling as well.

However I don't think anyone here with 470s is saying their cards are better than 580s, just that for their needs, and at their resolution, the 470 offers far better cost vs performance ratios and provided the performance they need to run most games out there maxed out. With the option of going SLI for still less than the cost of a single reference 580, at 1200p it just makes more sense.


I don't see how anyone could argue the value of 470s at 1200p and below, which is the market segment it was released for.

Edit: Here are two of the more demanding gpu games on the market that I know of. This is at 860 core/2000mem 1087v normally I game between 750 and 850 core.

IMAGE HERE

470s weren't the best cards when they came out, 460s offered killer price vs performance that the 470/480s couldn't really touch. However since 470s hit EOL and 5xx came out the prices have dropped quite a bit on them. You can get them new (if you can find them) for around $200 or less, and used ones with serial warranties can be had for less than $150. I just picked up one here for $115 - I don't know how fast it can go, but it is more than capable of the clocks I was running before. At their current pricing they offer compelling performance for their price, for those of us on a budget they make a lot of sense. No, they aren't faster than the $500 cards, but they don't need to be, because you can get two of the for less than the cost of one high end card - and that is where their value comes in. 1080p gaming doesn't need 1.5gb of vram, but having more than 1gb can help in several titles.
Agree with you in most of what you said, man.

Just the "overkill part" is off the mark, for me.
I based my GPU choice in min fps at 1080p (so, below your 1200 segment idea) with settings completely an utterly maxed in every game available (that I care to play). So, my idea was simply to have the min. fps never drop below 40 or so. Of course that is personal and completely subjective as to it being important or even noticeable. That the idea.
I bet your cards give a very comparable experience to what I get on my US$1050,00 setup for a much lower price. But still I am happy with it and wouldn't change (say if someone offered me two 570s and cash for my 580s I wouldn't take it). But that's just me and some other folk.

Satisfaction is personal. Pure and simple logic (like cost/benefit) are not necessarily important. For example. why does anyone buys a million-dollar car? You can go fast enough with a cheaper car, have as much fun, be safer, more comfortable and save a load of cash. But still... if you can buy the million-dollar car and WANT to, why not?

For example, I get min. 10fps and average 52 or so fps on that same Metro2033 benchmark but, with advanced physx ON (at stock speeds) ... Now, if I play on your pc will I see a difference? Maybe not, maybe yes but, I still like my 580s better. For me the cost compensate my satisfaction. There's no right or wrong here, just different points of view and tastes.

My point is that you don't need to justify your satisfaction by calling this or that overkill. What is "overkill" for me (like 590 GTX SLI) might be just enough to make the next guy happy and there's nothing wrong with that, right?
Like, the other day, I saw some guys bashing on a guy "called" Captain Overkill (hahah) cause he made a thread talking about his 990x + 580 quad SLI (or was it 590 SLI? anyway) on a 1200 monitor. That's just silly... hey, for me it could be called overkill, but its his money


That was all.
post #58 of 118
I totally agree with you, but I think we're the minority on the overkill part

I don't think my 470s are better than 580s, I just couldn't afford the 580s so I tried to get as much performance as I could for what I could spend, which landed me in sort of upgrade as I go build. It started out with one card, went to water, got another card, put that on water too.

Heck in all seriousness my initial build started out with a Regor 245 + 9800GT and over the last 10 months or so morphed into what I have now.

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post #59 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post
GTX 470 @ 915 core

Pixel Fillrate: 36.6G

Texel Fillrate: 51.2G

GTX 580 @ stock

Pixel Fillrate: 37.1G

Texel Fillrate: 49.4G



Aside from the fact that the GTX 580 has more bandwidth and VRAM, the GTX 580 would still be faster theoretically.

EDIT:




With the extra clock cycles, the fixed function hardware can perform more operations so yes you could make up for the missing 64 CUDA cores, 8 ROPs and 8 TMUs. However the GF110 chip is somewhat more refined so you'll miss out on some extras. Also it has to be said that 915 core on a GTX 470 is pretty uncommon if not rare
agreed. that is an incredible overclock

The cool thing here is that my card is also pretty damn close to if not better than a 570
Edited by Lord Xeb - 8/7/11 at 11:34pm
 
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post #60 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulver View Post
Indeed, price-performance wise it makes sense. But what if you don't care about price?
470 OC to 900 is almost as good as a stock 580. But again, just like yours can hit even 1050 on air, so can any 580, and a 470 at 1050 is much slower than a 580 at 1050 (or even 950).

I just feel it is silly that some people keep posting on a kind of unrealistic self-satisfying mood: "yeah, my 470 is much faster than a regular Joe's , more expensive, 580" While, most OCNer's 580 is faster than your 470 cause they are also OCed, so?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the OP and even find interesting to read about the insane 3Dmark11 scores that some of you folks get. :Cheers:

I just feel there is no need for the ego-massage that some guys keep insisting on.
If you got a 470 SLI, you got a monster system and should be happy about it. There's no need to go rubbing each others shoulders and saying: look how smart we are, we spent less money and got a system that is almost as good as a much more expensive one at stock
One 470 should be enough for any game, no? (maybe you would have to tweak a bit the settings on some but, I gamed on a 8600 for some 2 years, even after the 200 series was out and had loads of fun )

Lets all be happy with what we have OCN!
Some people like cost-benefit, some don't care so much about cost and only care about benefit. Whichever you prefer is just as well

On a side note, there are many 580s that are so silent as to make watercooling unecessary. Mine are (I run them at their stock 832/2100 at 1.0 volt). Also the DCII is very silent (I had one) if hard to fit in most cases in SLI. And again, you can also get ref. 580s and watercool them too, if you don't care about price


Yes they can.
They can reach even more than that: how about 1300/1300 on LN2
I think price is relevant to most people, so it's hard to disregard. I can imagine there a few who just add a bunch of 580s to their cart without even looking at the end price, so you may have a point there.

I don't think anyone here is "rubbing it in." I think that is in your mind. But of course I am pleased that I was able to get stock 580 performance out of a $162 investment, just like a person who oc'd a 580 would be happy to get stock 590 performance.
    
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