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[WoN] "unlimited detail” rendering is a scam. - Page 4

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
It is feasable, And those memory requirements that have used to debunk the tech are wayyyyyyyyyyy off.
Here are the options for storing those points (as far as I know):
1.) Store all unique data on the hard drive. This is just not possible due to the sheer amount of data.
2.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then from that data extrapolate a bunch of other points to fill in the gaps. This might make the storage on the hard drive feasible, but then you would still need a TON of system RAM, so I still don't see this as being possible either.
3.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then each frame extrapolate all of the extra points on the fly. This would theoretically take a ton of time, calculating the points for hundreds of millions of points each frame. I don't see how any modern GPU could do this and maintain a decent framerate.
4.) Have almost all geometry repeating through patterns, reuse the same objects many times. This would work, but it would mean you couldn't easily rotate any of your objects, because all of the points in that object would need to be recalculated either per-frame, or once initially and then would take up more memory. Games that use polygon mesh do it this way, you can have the same mesh on-screen 10 times but each mesh can have its own unique position, rotation/orientation, scale, lighting, color tinting, etc. This works great for polygon meshes because they have 10,000 points, not 500,000,000, a GPU simply couldn't translate that many points per frame. And this is likely part or most of the reason you don't see any moving or animating objects in their demos.
5.) ??? Some other method?

The video seems legit, but it's still lacking:
* Any rotated objects, notice, for example, all the palm trees are rotated the same direction?
* I don't see any shadow casting, just some ambient occlusion.
* No moving objects
* No bone/skin animating objects
* No change in the physics based on a player's presence.
* I've seen no mention of where they stand with a physics implementation either.
* I've seen no mention of dynamic or moving lights.

I could probably go on but I digress.
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post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Here are the options for storing those points (as far as I know):
1.) Store all unique data on the hard drive. This is just not possible due to the sheer amount of data.
2.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then from that data extrapolate a bunch of other points to fill in the gaps. This might make the storage on the hard drive feasible, but then you would still need a TON of system RAM, so I still don't see this as being possible either.
3.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then each frame extrapolate all of the extra points on the fly. This would theoretically take a ton of time, calculating the points for hundreds of millions of points each frame. I don't see how any modern GPU could do this and maintain a decent framerate.
4.) Have almost all geometry repeating through patterns, reuse the same objects many times. This would work, but it would mean you couldn't easily rotate any of your objects, because all of the points in that object would need to be recalculated either per-frame, or once initially and then would take up more memory. Games that use polygon mesh do it this way, you can have the same mesh on-screen 10 times but each mesh can have its own unique position, rotation/orientation, scale, lighting, color tinting, etc. This works great for polygon meshes because they have 10,000 points, not 500,000,000, a GPU simply couldn't translate that many points per frame. And this is likely part or most of the reason you don't see any moving or animating objects in their demos.
5.) ??? Some other method?

The video seems legit, but it's still lacking:
* Any rotated objects, notice, for example, all the palm trees are rotated the same direction?
* I don't see any shadow casting, just some ambient occlusion.
* No moving objects
* No bone/skin animating objects
* No change in the physics based on a player's presence.
* I've seen no mention of where they stand with a physics implementation either.
* I've seen no mention of dynamic or moving lights.

I could probably go on but I digress.
It's a TECH DEMO...Not a "look how pretty we can render a scene" demo

They made that for one reason and one reason alone, To showcase the unlited detail technology, Not to show off some lighting or shading technique.

And SVOs only store voxels at the surface, not inside the objects. This cuts down his estimated memory requirement drastically.

They could even be generateing things procedually, Remember that game in 96k?

There's more then enough tech demo's and white papers showing that animation, Skinning, Lighting and shading can all do done with point cloud rendering at an acceptable speed.
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post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dioxholster View Post
what does he know? he made minecraft which doesnt even have graphics.
He has the coding knowledge to create an engine, I trust he knows what he's talking about.

I don't like him calling them "Snake Oil Salesmen", as he has made millions from Minecraft simply by paying off a few high profile Youtube gamers.
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post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflux View Post
He has the coding knowledge to create an engine, I trust he knows what he's talking about.

I don't like him calling them "Snake Oil Salesmen", as he has made millions from Minecraft simply by paying off a few high profile Youtube gamers.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that. More than likely one of them caught wind of it via 4chan and then the rest got it as well.
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post #35 of 54
Not every particle has to be unique, indeed having them be unique would serve utterly no purpose. You don't need a trillion different kinds of dirt, you just need a trillion dirt particles, that can all be copies of each other, or of a few types.

Also, procedural generation is nothing new.
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post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflux View Post
He has the coding knowledge to create an engine, I trust he knows what he's talking about.

I don't like him calling them "Snake Oil Salesmen", as he has made millions from Minecraft simply by paying off a few high profile Youtube gamers.
A very poor knowledge of engine coding...
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post #37 of 54
waiting is what i will do
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post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Not every particle has to be unique, indeed having them be unique would serve utterly no purpose. You don't need a trillion different kinds of dirt, you just need a trillion dirt particles, that can all be copies of each other, or of a few types.

Also, procedural generation is nothing new.
Exactly, They're simply showing off millions of atoms just to brag/show off how much they can have....

In real games developers will more then likely be much more efficient with them.
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post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
Exactly, They're simply showing off millions of atoms just to brag/show off how much they can have....

In real games developers will more then likely be much more efficient with them.
I don't think you really understand what we're trying to point out.

Having detailed models is all well and good, but not if you:
1) Can't rotate or scale anything.
2) Can't rig or animate anything.
3) Can't afford the storage space for any real amount of props, games require hundreds to properly dress sets.
4) Can't apply dynamics of any sort.

There's no such thing as a free lunch and there's no point blindly thinking some idea will work just because people made a tech demo out of it.

Like you said...it's just a tech demo. Doesn't mean it's feasible, just mean it can work in whatever circumstances they made.

Their "millions" of atoms are simply instances of 4-5 actual objects. They already ARE being as efficient with them as possible. Game developers can't perform some magic to make it work any differently.

I rendered a scene a couple weeks ago at work that had 16.3 BILLION polygons. They were all just instances of 3 main tree models consisting of 3-10 million each though and was no big deal.
Edited by kweechy - 8/9/11 at 12:05pm
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post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post
I don't think you really understand what we're trying to point out.

Having detailed models is all well and good, but not if you:
1) Can't rotate or scale anything.
2) Can't rig or animate anything.
3) Can't afford the storage space for any real amount of props, games require hundreds to properly dress sets.
4) Can't apply dynamics of any sort.

1, 2 & 4 - There's white papers and videos on youtube that prove other wise.
3 - I've already debunked why his storage numbers are way off.
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