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[WoN] "unlimited detail” rendering is a scam. - Page 5

post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
Yes they can, I think you meen they can't do real time ray tracing at a usable frame rate.
Yes that was what I meant. Unless someone considers 1-2 fps playable.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkin93 View Post
They claim it's a scam, but in the video it said that none of that data would be stored on disk.
All information on computers are stored on disk somewhere.
    
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post #43 of 54
I seem to be one of the few on this forum that think this tech isn't a scam. They've already made polygon/vexel hybrid engines. The missing link is just getting the industry to switch over to vexel based art pipelines, but the guys at unlimited detail said they're working on a converter so people don't have to swtich art pipelines at all. Also having a game engine that supports vexels is another small hurdle.

So whats stoping a hybrid polygon/vexel engine from becoming reality? I'd really like to know.
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post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post
All information on computers are stored on disk somewhere.
True, but have you ever thought about how information is used with algorithms to dramatically decrease the size of a file.

For example, a 1080p movie is about 20-30gb on average. BUT the souce video for that same movie is probably around 1-3TB of data at least.

They use algorithms to predict and store same. So frames carry the same info from frame to frame.


Also, imagine if you tried to render a full video game at once. It would take immense power. Also, do you think video games use every single file, texture, and model the original game maker used? No, they are probably around 5-10% the size of the original.

A computer can easily take the same models and quadruple it without quadrupling the amount of power needed
post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Here are the options for storing those points (as far as I know):
1.) Store all unique data on the hard drive. This is just not possible due to the sheer amount of data.
2.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then from that data extrapolate a bunch of other points to fill in the gaps. This might make the storage on the hard drive feasible, but then you would still need a TON of system RAM, so I still don't see this as being possible either.
3.) Store a normal amount of data on the hard drive, then each frame extrapolate all of the extra points on the fly. This would theoretically take a ton of time, calculating the points for hundreds of millions of points each frame. I don't see how any modern GPU could do this and maintain a decent framerate.
4.) Have almost all geometry repeating through patterns, reuse the same objects many times. This would work, but it would mean you couldn't easily rotate any of your objects, because all of the points in that object would need to be recalculated either per-frame, or once initially and then would take up more memory. Games that use polygon mesh do it this way, you can have the same mesh on-screen 10 times but each mesh can have its own unique position, rotation/orientation, scale, lighting, color tinting, etc. This works great for polygon meshes because they have 10,000 points, not 500,000,000, a GPU simply couldn't translate that many points per frame. And this is likely part or most of the reason you don't see any moving or animating objects in their demos.
5.) ??? Some other method?

The video seems legit, but it's still lacking:
* Any rotated objects, notice, for example, all the palm trees are rotated the same direction?
* I don't see any shadow casting, just some ambient occlusion.
* No moving objects
* No bone/skin animating objects
* No change in the physics based on a player's presence.
* I've seen no mention of where they stand with a physics implementation either.
* I've seen no mention of dynamic or moving lights.

I could probably go on but I digress.
Why did the mod not remove this topic? This has been posted twice over...

So we meet again, lordikon! mwahhaha!!!

No but seriously, why is this still here? Go debate in the other topic guys...
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post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio View Post
I seem to be one of the few on this forum that think this tech isn't a scam. They've already made polygon/vexel hybrid engines. The missing link is just getting the industry to switch over to vexel based art pipelines, but the guys at unlimited detail said they're working on a converter so people don't have to swtich art pipelines at all. Also having a game engine that supports vexels is another small hurdle.

So whats stoping a hybrid polygon/vexel engine from becoming reality? I'd really like to know.
Tech6 is supposed to use voxel tech. I'm going out on a limb and saying that if ID believes in the use of voxels that this isn't a myth or a scam. They don't have a physics or lighting engine in this, it's a tech demo for the soul purpose of rendering.

[edit] There are a couple articles about it. If Tech5 creates Rage and it's unique textures, what the hell is Tech6 going to do!?
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphic...ysics-and-more
Edited by mushroomboy - 8/10/11 at 3:13am
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post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Tech6 is supposed to use voxel tech. I'm going out on a limb and saying that if ID believes in the use of voxels that this isn't a myth or a scam. They don't have a physics or lighting engine in this, it's a tech demo for the soul purpose of rendering.

[edit] There are a couple articles about it. If Tech5 creates Rage and it's unique textures, what the hell is Tech6 going to do!?
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphic...ysics-and-more

Iirc it's going to be a mixture of voxels and polygons. Voxels for the static terrain and polygons for everthing else

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post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
It's a TECH DEMO...Not a "look how pretty we can render a scene" demo

They made that for one reason and one reason alone, To showcase the unlited detail technology, Not to show off some lighting or shading technique.

And SVOs only store voxels at the surface, not inside the objects. This cuts down his estimated memory requirement drastically.

They could even be generateing things procedually, Remember that game in 96k?

There's more then enough tech demo's and white papers showing that animation, Skinning, Lighting and shading can all do done with point cloud rendering at an acceptable speed.
I'm curious about these whitepapers, can you provide a link to some? I'd like to see how they're accomplishing animation with so much data.

I understand that the voxels are only at the surface, however every pixel of a texture you would see is now a point, so you can imagine that there are still thousands of points where a triangle would have been previously.

And even if the points are procedurally generated they would then either take up memory from that point on, or they would need to be regenerated every frame, neither of those seem efficient enough to be reasonable solutions.

Finally, I get that this is a tech demo, but they're unwilling to even accept interviews, so until we see them demo other things like rotated objects, shadow casting, or animations then we just have to take their word for it.
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post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
I'm curious about these whitepapers, can you provide a link to some? I'd like to see how they're accomplishing animation with so much data.

I understand that the voxels are only at the surface, however every pixel of a texture you would see is now a point, so you can imagine that there are still thousands of points where a triangle would have been previously.

And even if the points are procedurally generated they would then either take up memory from that point on, or they would need to be regenerated every frame, neither of those seem efficient enough to be reasonable solutions.

Finally, I get that this is a tech demo, but they're unwilling to even accept interviews, so until we see them demo other things like rotated objects, shadow casting, or animations then we just have to take their word for it.
Or not. How many times can this information be posted anyways?
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post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirmie View Post
Or not. How many times can this information be posted anyways?
Yea I agree. I'm usually not one to take someone's word for it, unless they've earned my trust and respect.

I also agree this thread should be closed or at least merged with the original thread.
Edited by lordikon - 8/10/11 at 11:11am
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