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[HOCP] Euclideon & Unlimited Detail - Bruce Dell Interview - Page 7

post #61 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoxt View Post
No...Hard-OCP didn't let anyone down. They did what they were supposed to do, which was to lend a somewhat credible "Reference" to this "Marketecture" in development. That's all we can hope at this point.

I call it Marketecture as it's all hype and awareness at this point and they are not quite ready to publish etc. We get that. And I totally respect their decision to NDA Hard-OCP in this regard and keep a lid on it.

That said, I would love to see them partner with some large company so we could see this implemented realistically in the next 2 years etc.

What could games do with Avatar Graphics?!?!

We'll see...one year...b4 we all die I hope.
Well, Pixar has established a pretty good rule of thumb on this regard if we look at their release of Toy Story in 3D this summer.

In 1994, Toy Story took 5-9 hours to render each frame using their state of the art render farm.

In 2010, rendering the same film for 3D on current state of the art technology took...wait for it...under 1 minute per frame.

So likely, in a few more years, games can look as good as Toy Story 1.

You can assume similar timelines for any CGI blockbuster.
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post #62 of 76
I've had more time to think this through after watching the Hard-OCP video again.

Imagine every pixel on your screen is an independent Engine. In parallel going out and getting one Ray of data in 32bit color. Or even better splitting your screen up into 64 squares etc...you get it, it can be scaled.

Hmm I wonder could be done very fast with say a Cuda processor with individual core's scanning through a small dedicated square of real estate on your screen.

Almost like massively parallel mini SLI. Ok I'll shutup now lol.

To those that mention the amount of detail that has to be in memory etc...How does Zbrush do it? Could it be computed on the fly from some rulesets? Interesting.
post #63 of 76
Listen to what he said, They have one atom for every pixel.

They are culling the atoms on a per-pixel basis.

So on a 1336x768 screen there would only be 1026048 used and visible atoms as all the others would be culled because they were either not in view our to small to been seen.

That would reduce the memory requirements somewhat.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk
Edited by Rocket Dog - 8/12/11 at 3:43am
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post #64 of 76
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post #65 of 76
Jesus christ, why does this software recieve so much rage?

Besides from an investors perspective, what have you got to lose?
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post #66 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
Listen to what he said, They have one atom for every pixel.

They are culling the atoms on a per-pixel basis.

So on a 1336x768 screen there would only be 1026048 used and visible atoms as all the others would be culled because they were either not in view our to small to been seen.

That would reduce the memory requirements somewhat.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk
This is what I got from the video also (keep in mind I'm completely ignorant of the technology and vaguely familiar with voxels, atoms, etc.).

The memory requirements do seem tremendous until he (sort of) explains the 'search algorithm' they use.
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post #67 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog View Post
Listen to what he said, They have one atom for every pixel.

They are culling the atoms on a per-pixel basis.

So on a 1336x768 screen there would only be 1026048 used and visible atoms as all the others would be culled because they were either not in view our to small to been seen.

That would reduce the memory requirements somewhat.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk
What you're rendering and the amount of memory you're using have nothing to do with each other. Well, I guess resolution does play some part in it, as you do need a chunk of memory reserved for what you're about to render, but that chunk would pale in comparison to the memory requirements for everything that is not in view. However, that's only for GPUs, he's rendering using software so he probably doesn't have to use any extra memory to render.

Everything that exists is either in memory or in storage, and from what exists you use culling algorithms to determine what part of that is visible and should be rendered.
Edited by lordikon - 8/12/11 at 6:24am
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post #68 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Indeed. I'm curious how it's mathematically possible though? All 21 trillion points cannot reside in memory, because no PC has 21TB of RAM. So there really aren't 21 trillion unique points, there are probably much less and then the areas between the points are being filled with interpolated data. So his claim about 21 trillion "points" would be like a polygon-based game claiming trillions of points by counting the positions each pixel of a texture on each triangle.
No, it'd be like counting the additional polygons rendered with tessellation as opposed to without tesselation. That's a more appropriate analogy, if you come back with "hurr they're not using tessellation" I'm going to rip off your nads .
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post #69 of 76
Quite believable.

Hopefully they deliver, as they said they would release more videos before the end of the year... and an SDK after that.

They got the grant after all.
post #70 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzalias View Post
No, it'd be like counting the additional polygons rendered with tessellation as opposed to without tessellation. That's a more appropriate analogy, if you come back with "hurr they're not using tessellation" I'm going to rip off your nads .
There are never additional polygons rendered with tessellation, only fewer polygons. You take a detailed model and strip away polygons as the model gets further from the camera.

But yes, it's similar to an analogy to tessellation, as the camera gets further from the point cloud fewer points need to be rendered, so it's similar to a continuous LOD (For those who watched the video, LOD stands for Level of Detail, not Level of Distance as he called it in the video). Even with tessellation the points are still in memory, the GPU just ignores some of them when rendering.

I have no doubt about their algorithms being able to efficiently render only the points that lie beneath each pixel, what I'm questioning and concerned about is the claim of 21 trillion points of data, which cannot possibly be storage in either storage or memory on that laptop if they were all unique. So once again, there cannot be 21 trillion unique points of data, much of it would need to be instanced. If you're talking about instancing allowing that many points I have no doubt that you could do the same with polygons, so the main difference is that amount of points can be in view at any given time, and that is where point clouds win. The point clouds allow for greater detail to be in view at any given time, but I'm not sure they allow for greater detail models to take up less space in memory. And this whole post so far is just about the storage issues. With enough instancing storage wouldn't be an issue and you'd end up with a world like you see in most games today, where the combine models to form different looking environments. The issues that I'm most curious about are animations, shadows, rotations, scaling, and physics.
Edited by lordikon - 8/12/11 at 8:49am
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