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[GK] 8 Grams Of Thorium Could Replace Gasoline In Cars. - Page 22

post #211 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14722520 
Go google Tom Ogle and look for yourself, I'm not your babysitter.

It's funny though, people always insist these things are mere 'urban myth' or 'conspiracies'. Where this happened is where I'm from. I've seen the original newspaper articles, spoken to people who rode in the car, people who knew him personally, and the building where he worked as a mechanic and built the car.

Cry tinfoil hat all you want, it happened, it's fact, it's verifiable dozens of times over. If you want 'proof' go get it, no one is going to spoon feed you.

The bottom line is 100+ mpg tech. has existed for 1/2 a century.

Nice try concluding that all those competitors should be dead, though you conveniently ignored the last paragraph in my previous post. I'm not saying they're not interested in alternative tech. I'm saying the speed at which these things get rolled out to the market is directly proportional to what the market will bear for fuel pricing....it's just business.

Also, I'd be willing to bet the 'prize' for any of those people making a significant breakthrough very likely involves selling the patent to shell for a nice big number.

Does it strike you as odd that Ogle's design and patents are out there for everyone to see and yet after all these years NOBODY has built it and independently verified that it works?
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post #212 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaBidRaBit;14723087 
Does it strike you as odd that Ogle's design and patents are out there for everyone to see and yet after all these years NOBODY has built it and independently verified that it works?

What makes you assume nobody has? Even GM owned/owns a patent on a very similar system prior to Ogle's design.
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post #213 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14723358 
What makes you assume nobody has? Even GM owned/owns a patent on a very similar system prior to Ogle's design.

What makes me assume that nobody has? The fact that I have the internetz and a google machine and I can't find a single instance of it being independently verified. Have you?

All I keep coming across are the same handful of articles from the late 70s reprinted over and over and conspiracy theory forums where people seem to blindly take this whole conspiracy angle as fact.
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post #214 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14722520 
Go google Tom Ogle and look for yourself, I'm not your babysitter.

It's funny though, people always insist these things are mere 'urban myth' or 'conspiracies'. Where this happened is where I'm from. I've seen the original newspaper articles, spoken to people who rode in the car, people who knew him personally, and the building where he worked as a mechanic and built the car.

Cry tinfoil hat all you want, it happened, it's fact, it's verifiable dozens of times over. If you want 'proof' go get it, no one is going to spoon feed you.

The bottom line is 100+ mpg tech. has existed for 1/2 a century.

Nice try concluding that all those competitors should be dead, though you conveniently ignored the last paragraph in my previous post. I'm not saying they're not interested in alternative tech. I'm saying the speed at which these things get rolled out to the market is directly proportional to what the market will bear for fuel pricing....it's just business.

Also, I'd be willing to bet the 'prize' for any of those people making a significant breakthrough very likely involves selling the patent to shell for a nice big number.

1. Gasoline is already vaporized when it enters the engine block and hits the valves/cylinder wall before being compressed. EFI eliminates the problems of standard carburetors without the inherent drawbacks of vapor carburetion. (knocking)
2. There's this thing called energy density. Gasoline only contains a certain amount of energy (which is cut down to about 30% in a combustion engine due to efficiency loss due to heat) and vaporizing the fuel in the gas tank doesn't change that. It's simply not physically possible for 1 gallon of gas to produce enough energy via combustion to drive a 2 ton car 100 miles.
3. The point I was making was that he sold his patent to an oil company. ELIMINATING ANY INCENTIVE TO KILL HIM, which is completely beside the fact that people have been getting much better gas mileage for years with no consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaBidRaBit;14723393 
All I keep coming across are the same handful of articles from the late 70s reprinted over and over and conspiracy theory forums where people seem to blindly take this whole conspiracy angle as fact.

Exactly.

Edit: Here's a first-hand account of a vaporizer modification.

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=8613

Coming from a traditional carb in the Mazda B2000, a 10% increase in mileage is believable. Not 1000%

Edit2: This is really the only page necessary to know the Tom Ogle story is a bunch of crap.

http://newworldorderreport.com/News/tabid/266/ID/6689/Tom-Ogle-invented-a-vapor-fuel-intake-system-in-1977-for-all-automobiles-He-was-found-dead-from-an-apparent-overdose-of-Darvon-and-alcohol-poisoning-on-19-August-1981.aspx

New World Order Report, what a crackpot website.

Edit3: supaspoon, you have tangible, physical, logical reasoning and evidence as well as anecdotal evidence against you. I'll be patiently awaiting your presumably well thought out, scientifically supported retort.
Edited by aroc91 - 8/26/11 at 2:32pm
    
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post #215 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaBidRaBit;14723393 
What makes me assume that nobody has? The fact that I have the internetz and a google machine and I can't find a single instance of it being independently verified. Have you?

All I keep coming across are the same handful of articles from the late 70s reprinted over and over and conspiracy theory forums where people seem to blindly take this whole conspiracy angle as fact.

http://streetandcustom.com/200-mpg-gas-electric-hybrid/

gee, a random article citing several different people over the past century building similar systems.

Maybe your interweb just sucks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroc91;14723438 
1. Gasoline is already vaporized when it enters the engine block and hits the valves/cylinder wall before being compressed. EFI eliminates the problems of standard carburetors without the inherent drawbacks of vapor carburetion. (knocking)
2. There's this thing called energy density. Gasoline only contains a certain amount of energy (which is cut down to about 30% in a combustion engine due to efficiency loss due to heat) and vaporizing the fuel in the gas tank doesn't change that. It's simply not physically possible for 1 gallon of gas to produce enough energy via combustion to drive a 2 ton car 100 miles.
3. The point I was making was that he sold his patent to an oil company. ELIMINATING ANY INCENTIVE TO KILL HIM, which is completely beside the fact that people have been getting much better gas mileage for years with no consequence.



Exactly.

Edit: Here's a first-hand account of a vaporizer modification.

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=8613

Coming from a traditional carb in the Mazda B2000, a 10% increase in mileage is believable. Not 1000%

Edit2: This is really the only page necessary to know the Tom Ogle story is a bunch of crap.

http://newworldorderreport.com/News/tabid/266/ID/6689/Tom-Ogle-invented-a-vapor-fuel-intake-system-in-1977-for-all-automobiles-He-was-found-dead-from-an-apparent-overdose-of-Darvon-and-alcohol-poisoning-on-19-August-1981.aspx

New World Order Report, what a crackpot website.

Edit3: supaspoon, you have tangible, physical, logical reasoning and evidence as well as anecdotal evidence against you. I'll be patiently awaiting your presumably well thought out, scientifically supported retort.

His main backer sold out to advance fuel systems, which is more of an engineering company than an 'oil' company, which did provide him a significant amount of cash for further development. He did not 'sell his patent to an oil company', Shell had an offer on the the table which he refused (awaiting the profession that lowly afs outbid Shell).

As for your article, so what? Because 1 crackpot publication grabs something that's be published dozens of other places automatically invalidates it's existence? Please.

Anyway, no I'm not a scientist, no I'm not a mechanic, and I cannot invent this over the weekend, write a paper, and come profess to you "PROOF!". Give me a break. All I'm saying is that it happened, I've met people who were there. Is it possible that he con'd everyone? I suppose, but considering all parties involved, he'd have to be 10 times smarter to fake it than actually do it. He had the financial support of several rather powerful locals, not the type of people to be easily swindled.
Edited by supaspoon - 8/26/11 at 3:05pm
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post #216 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14723776 
http://streetandcustom.com/200-mpg-gas-electric-hybrid/

gee, a random article citing several different people over the past century building similar systems.

Maybe your interweb just sucks?

lol No, my interwebs are operating normally. Maybe it is your reading comprehension that sucks?

Your article one ups your previous assertion and claims that 200mpg was attained in 1933 (!) by this guy named Pogue. Of course, again, this claim has never been independently verified. Snopes puts the claim squarely in the land of conman scam inflated by decades of urban myth.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp
Quote:
No one reputable was allowed to see the mechanical miracle in action, let alone have a chance to measure its results. After the initial excitement over Pogue's 1936 announcement had faded, more serious types began to openly doubt that the carburetor would work as described. In the December 1936 issue of Automotive Industries magazine, its engineering editor, P.M. Heldt, said of a sketch of the Pogue carburetor: "The sketch fails to show any features hitherto unknown in carburetor practice, and absolutely gives no warrant for crediting the remarkable results claimed." Other journalists were beginning to voice similar opinions.

In response to calls to put up or shut up, Pogue's miracle carburetor was heard of no more. Faced with the choice of believing someone had made claims his invention couldn't later live up to or that a monied bad guy had bought up a technology to forever keep it off the market, at least some chose to believe the suppression theory. That the carburetor never made it to the public, they said, was proof enough of its existence.

As sometimes happens in the world of urban legends, desire for something to be true transforms a rumor into certainty that this very thing is fact. Over the years, our legend about a 200 mpg car has bobbed to the surface in community after community, been debunked in numerous respected publications, and bobbed right back up in the wake of those debunkings. The need to believe in this wondrous technology and the evil car manufacturers who are deliberately withholding it from the market appears too strong to combat.

Your article is nothing but more conspiracy theory nonsense passed off as irrefutable fact. Let me show you how well my internetz work. Your article was written by Paul W. Kincaid, the proprietor of FuelReducer yet he is talking about HIMSELF in the third person. Here is the link to the original article (notice in the original he doesn't refer to himself in the third person but the article is otherwise identical to the one you linked and copyrighted by...you guessed it...Paul W. Kincaid.
http://fuelreducer.com/fltprs/index.php?entry=entry101202-114717

He's just pushing his own scam product that, again, has never been independently verified or a prototype even actually built. The article you supplied even admits to such:
Quote:
Will it actually work? We may never know because development and testing takes a large amount of money. The Big 3 have a lot of money but they won’t invest any of it towards building a more fuel efficient and near zero emission vehicle. The little guys, like Kincaid, have the design and know how to build them but no money to manufacture a high mileage and near zero emission fuel system, let alone a whole vehicle. That is the main reason why the Big 3 are not the least bit threatened by any new technology emerging that will improve the inefficiency of their polluting vehicles.

Edited by RaBidRaBit - 8/26/11 at 4:12pm
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post #217 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14723776 
http://streetandcustom.com/200-mpg-gas-electric-hybrid/

gee, a random article citing several different people over the past century building similar systems.

Actually, Pogue was the only one in that article that built a similar system. The other one mentioned was an electric motor conversion.

Side note: I find it funny how Ogle claimed his lawnmower got too hot (hotter than during normal operation, seeing as he had to cool it with a fan, but more mpg=less fuel=less combustion=less heat, so that doesn't make any sense), yet one of the points he made regarding his car was how cool it stayed. Just an observation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14723776 
As for your article, so what? Because 1 crackpot publication grabs something that's be published dozens of other places automatically invalidates it's existence? Please.

Considering every article I've found is just as shady...

http://www.rexresearch.com/ogle/1ogle.htm
http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=787
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Tom_Ogle%27s_Vapor_Fuel_System (this one is a clean energy systems wiki (although still not very legitimate-looking) and argues against it)
http://www.deathofagasguzzler.com/profiles/blogs/tom-ogle-160-mpg-by-a-high
http://elpasotimes.typepad.com/morgue/2008/05/tom-ogles-inves.html
http://push.pickensplan.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2187034%3ABlogPost%3A1238697
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread539369/pg1 (another HERP DERP IT'S A CONSPIRACY site)
http://www.alien-ufos.com/conspiracy-theories/36857-thomas-ogle.html (alien-ufos.com, enough said)
http://grantlawrence.blogspot.com/2010/01/tom-ogle-amazing-life-and-death-of-not.html
http://www.helium.com/items/137087-tom-ogle-and-his-environmental-car
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14723776 
Anyway, no I'm not a scientist, no I'm not a mechanic, and I cannot invent this over the weekend, write a paper, and come profess to you "PROOF!". Give me a break. All I'm saying is that it happened, I've met people who were there. Is it possible that he con'd everyone? I suppose, but considering all parties involved, he'd have to be 10 times smarter to fake it than actually do it. He had the financial support of several rather powerful locals, not the type of people to be easily swindled.

Here's the patent. It's available to anyone, so nothing is stopping people from building his invention.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4177779.PN.&OS=PN/4177779&RS=PN/4177779

If you took your own advice and searched for "vapor carburetion", you'll find all sorts of little do-it-yourself car forums where people discuss this technology. Lots of people have built similar systems. Nobody has seen efficiency increases like Ogle claimed.

Regardless of what happened to him, it doesn't change the laws of physics.

Another side note, that streetandcustom.com article you posted claimed that leaded gas was invented to stifle Pogue's invention. Funny, considering 22 ACTUAL sources, including peer-reviewed journal articles claim otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead
    
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post #218 of 236
Yeah, El Paso times is pretty shady too. rolleyes.gif

The article I provided was merely to illustrate that Ogle is certainly not the only person to have done the stuff. Even GM has a similar patent.

Anyway, what's you're point. If you're claiming that it was a hoax and he swindled the press and a few folks with a whole lot of money into believing him, I disagree (for several reasons), but I certainly concede the possibility.

All I can assert with total certainty is that it happened. If you wish to believe that he was very convincing fraud that talked a few established saavy businessmen into giving him a lot of money, that's fine, I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
Edited by supaspoon - 8/26/11 at 5:58pm
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post #219 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaBidRaBit;14723393 
What makes me assume that nobody has? The fact that I have the internetz and a google machine and I can't find a single instance of it being independently verified. Have you?

Someone could have mad one and just hasn't said anything for what ever reason.
    
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post #220 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by supaspoon;14725256 
Yeah, El Paso times is pretty shady too. rolleyes.gif

The article I provided was merely to illustrate that Ogle is certainly not the only person to have done the stuff. Even GM has a similar patent.

Anyway, what's you're point. If you're claiming that it was a hoax and he swindled the press and a few folks with a whole lot of money into believing him, I disagree (for several reasons), but I certainly concede the possibility.

All I can assert with total certainty is that it happened. If you wish to believe that he was very convincing fraud that talked a few established saavy businessmen into giving him a lot of money, that's fine, I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

Yeah, all newspapers are infallible. rolleyes.gif

My point is he did not make his 2 1/2 ton car get 100 miles per gallon with his invention. His claims are fraudulent, as that is physically impossible, which, in turn, makes the whole theory about him being assassinated untrue as well, because that eliminates any motive.

Since you are so utterly convinced that a mechanic can defy the laws of physics using a method that many others have used, demonstrating no such increase in efficiency, I don't really know what to say at this point.

Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?
    
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