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Sub zero liquids

2K views 44 replies 6 participants last post by  MightyMission 
#1 ·
So, in the pursuit of performance I have come up with a plan to get some nice cold water in my loop. Having a window box (I have started using google sketch to make a quick mock up, I'll post pictures tonight). Though I have a couple question/reservations.

1.) Ethynol and Propylene Glycol's freezing point is pretty low (70-30 water mixture is around -50C), but it seems to get a little thicker around the -30 to -40 C. Can the D5 handle that without breaking or wearing down?

2.) 90% Isopropyl alchy seems to have a lower freezing point (-89), but I don't really know how to use it inside a loop. Do you make a 50-50 mixture or use it pure in the loop? Does it pose a danger to the components (ie: combustion, corrosion). Can I get away with a 30-70 mix (30% iso 70% water) and still be freeze proof. Will the Iso degrade upon contact with water and require more to be effective.

3.) I'm planning on two seperate loops with 2 Koolance heat exchangers. One loop will be under Car Prestone (ie:Ethynol Glycol) and the other preferably under distilled with some Isopropyl alchy. Being that the loop in the computer will not be sub zero, I just want to make it freeze proof when it enters the heat exchangers so as to not cause a clog up. The second loop will be anywhere from -10 to -40 during winter.

The reason why I want two seperate loops is one; ease of maintanence and two; best thermal liquid inside the computer.

Don't worry about condensation, I have that coverd. I get 15 to 18% humidity during winter here, which means at 20C ambients my due point is -5 C before dew occurs. I'll be using my rads in a pull config inside the case and will have the cold water and fans heating up the water just a little and cooling the inside of the case to sub ambients also. I have bought neopryne to give me a back up incase of dew however.

Thanks!
 
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#2 ·
alcohol or acetone will give the best temps by far... they will not freeze.. they WILL eat your pump impeller and crack your pump housing..along with dissolving the inside or your tubing.
eek.gif
*I have pics if you need proof
wink.gif
I reached -70c without any issues using my chiller.

For 2x loops, I would recommend you use option #1 for your exterior loop.. and straight distilled for the interior loop.
 
#3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20;14558247
alcohol or acetone will give the best temps by far... they will not freeze.. they WILL eat your pump impeller and crack your pump housing..along with dissolving the inside or your tubing.
eek.gif
*I have pics if you need proof
wink.gif
I reached -70c without any issues using my chiller.

For 2x loops, I would recommend you use option #1 for your exterior loop.. and straight distilled for the interior loop.
The thing I'm scared of is ice build up within the heat exhangers on the distilled loop side of things. If one side is reall cold the distilled could freez in the pipes and clog up. It would also give me no performance if there's and ice build up in the heat exchangers. Or so I would think.
 
#4 ·
If your getting temps down that low.. then you will need anti-freeze on both sides/loops. You can run your internal loop about 80/20 [water/ethyl] for less viscosity and strain on the pump.. and keep the outside loop 60/40 for better protection against icing.
 
#5 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20;14558342
If your getting temps down that low.. then you will need anti-freeze on both sides/loops. You can run your internal loop about 80/20 [water/ethyl] for less viscosity and strain on the pump.. and keep the outside loop 60/40 for better protection against icing.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I just don't like having that stuff inside the computer loop. But I guess if I go down this road I won't have much of a choice in the matter.

Use regular car prestone and mix myself or is there some special stuff sold to computer ehtusiasts?
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMission;14558381
bloody hell mistah how did you get -70c out of a chiller?
For what it's worth i use 60% M.E.G. and 40% distilled water but even then i only get a max of -32c
frown.gif

Maybe its the 3 metre run from the res to the first block,i dunno
I R Jelly!!
Sorry, I'm not a chemist... =P

What's M.E.G.?
 
#8 ·
What about condensation? Assuming you're not sitting outside with your rig gaming in full ski gear
smile.gif
 
#10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosSpiceyWeiner;14558467
What about condensation? Assuming you're not sitting outside with your rig gaming in full ski gear
smile.gif
I covered that point in the OP.

20C Ambients
18% Humidity
-5C Dew point
Neopryne.
Rads taking cold water and heating it up to cool inside of the case bringing dew point even lower.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMission;14558478
haha i only know what it is cost it cost me both arms to buy it,typing with my nose...
MEG is Monoethylene Glycol i'm not sure of your location but in the UK it's a little difficult to get and costs ÂŁ30/gallon,i use 3 gallons
Type my location into google maps. Zoom in to about 100ft.

I go back to town every 50 days so I can bring supplies up if I need them. I don't have access to lab stuff though, so I'll stick to the regular stuff you get in stores. =P
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rognin;14558505
I covered that point in the OP.

20C Ambients
18% Humidity
-5C Dew point
Neopryne.
Rads taking cold water and heating it up to cool inside of the case bringing dew point even lower.
My bad!! It's Friday and I've got one foot out the door
redface.gif
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20;14558817
Rev.1 CL3P chill'r ..not as good..but did the job
wink.gif


Rev.2 - CL3P chill'r. Held Q6600 @ better than -40c under load at 4.6ghz and E8400 @ better than -60c under load at 5.6ghz. ~6lbs of DICE for 4.5hrs of continuous temp control
biggrin.gif
This is my dry ice from November to April. On the warmest of days I get around -10 to -12. On the coldest of days (Jan to March) it goes from -20 to -38 (plus windchill, but that's not factored in really with this project). So I will get awesome temps 5 months outta the year, that's what the QDC's are for, cause during summer, I'll have A/C on at 20C.
DSC_4945.jpg.jpg
 
#20 ·
I would use a cheap car radiator or something ridiculously large for your outdoor rad.. the larger the better..you may not even need airflow through it for great cooling with such low ambients.

So.. your loop would be something like:

outdoor loop- Large Rad->pump->HXC
indoor loop- HXC-> pump->cooling blocks

*your going to need fat sized tubing..and something good and stiff so you can insulate it properly. I would recommend using as much 1/2 or 3/4" copper pipe as possible to minimize kinks [which will be impossible to spot once insulated
redface.gif
].
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20;14559537
I would use a cheap car radiator or something ridiculously large for your outdoor rad.. the larger the better..you may not even need airflow through it for great cooling with such low ambients.

So.. your loop would be something like:

outdoor loop- Large Rad->pump->HXC
indoor loop- HXC-> pump->cooling blocks

*your going to need fat sized tubing..and something good and stiff so you can insulate it properly. I would recommend using as much 1/2 or 3/4" copper pipe as possible to minimize kinks [which will be impossible to spot once insulated
redface.gif
].
I'm hoping I can forgo the insulation as the computer will be next to the window, so short pipes and low cold loss.

Looking like this for the loop order.

Outdoor loop: Res/pump combo> Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 Radiator > Koolance HXP-193 number one > Koolance HXP-193 number two > res/pump.

Indoor Loop: res/pump combo > Second D5 pump with EK top > Koolance HXP-193 number one > Koolance HXP-193 number two > 200mm rad > 280mm rad > 120mm rad > CPU-370 > Full mobo block > three GTX580's in parralell > Ram block > res/pump combo.

The rads are all in a pull config right now, with 4 exhaust fans on the side panel. So hoping I can decrease ambients inside the case further and to help the blocks, reduce chances of condensation etc.
 
#22 ·
I dont think your idea would produce negative temps though..negating the whole need for anti-freeze or other liquids..

ie- if the cold is outside.. this is where the radiator needs to be.. having a rad on the interior loop would just 'warm' the already chilled liquid..

Going back to my loop layout.. you would have a sub-zero external loop, chilling an internal loop with no rad. Simply splitting the internal loop into 2-3x different outputs will help maximize the cooling potential without building heat as it passes each component.

take a look..external loop in blue.. internal loop shown in orange and red

Attachment 224142

*just realized I didnt add in the other pump for the internal loop.. but you get what i was going for..
A setup like that would take FULL Advantage of such low ambients outside..and require a minimal amount of rads/fans. The setup like you are referring to, would hold a low delta.. but would be a real waste of a lot of w/c gear and money. I hold a 8c delta on my w/c loop...and its inside the house.. 2x blocks, 1x rad.. you dont need all that extra stuff just to hold a tight temp margin [as it sounds more like this is your goal, rather than -0].
 
#23 ·
Quote:


Originally Posted by CL3P20
View Post

I dont think your idea would produce negative temps though..negating the whole need for anti-freeze or other liquids..

ie- if the cold is outside.. this is where the radiator needs to be.. having a rad on the interior loop would just 'warm' the already chilled liquid..

Going back to my loop layout.. you would have a sub-zero external loop, chilling an internal loop with no rad. Simply splitting the internal loop into 2-3x different outputs will help maximize the cooling potential without building heat as it passes each component.

take a look..external loop in blue.. internal loop shown in orange and red

Attachment 224142

*just realized I didnt add in the other pump for the internal loop.. but you get what i was going for..
A setup like that would take FULL Advantage of such low ambients outside..and require a minimal amount of rads/fans. The setup like you are referring to, would hold a low delta.. but would be a real waste of a lot of w/c gear and money. I hold a 8c delta on my w/c loop...and its inside the house.. 2x blocks, 1x rad.. you dont need all that extra stuff just to hold a tight temp margin [as it sounds more like this is your goal, rather than -0].

It's half my goal. The room I theoretically live in is 15' x 15'. When I fold in winter time or game, I have to open the door every other hour to keep the inside "livable" or I hit 25 to 30 c in the room. I have no way of cooling the room except to open a window or the door for 5 minutes then closing it. Which gets quite annoying and cold. The other half would be to have better temps on the components, but not sub zero, just sub ambient.

This solution would render the ambients inside my room livable. Remeber I live in a bunk over the 53rd parallel. I don't pay for power, and I'd like the computer to fold while I sleep and not wake up well done (cooking refrence).

So yes, in part I'm not looking for 0C water, more of a me solution than a computer one.

Dunno if that all made sense...

I also don't have to turn on the fans to max, I could just leave them at a minimal voltage. That would also reduce sound and help me sleep at night. =P

TL;DR, Basically a winter A/C substitute, as I found out the hard way you can't turn on an A/C in winter... =P
 
#24 ·
I forgot to add; in doing it this way I don't have to take apart the computer every 6 months to take the rads out and what not. Just take the a/c out of the window, but the box in it's place, unhook the QDC's and hook em up to the box. Makes everything that much easier and hassel free.

I don't get weekends and time off to work on the puter. When I get time off they give me an airplane ticket and I leave camp. So no computer to play with. I also only get about 4 to 5 hours of spare time a day, which I'd rather use gaming or other leisurley things with a computer.
 
#25 ·
Sorry just stumbled upon this thread and wanted to add:
Mate you are a mad scientist.

I would be so scared to try something like this.
No not scared - wrong word...I know that i would mess this up and end with a destroyed PC. Maybe even some small animals would have to suffer
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Eiht;14560853
Sorry just stumbled upon this thread and wanted to add:
wubsmiley.gif
Mate you are a mad scientist.
wubsmiley.gif

I would be so scared to try something like this.
No not scared - wrong word...I know that i would mess this up and end with a destroyed PC. Maybe even some small animals would have to suffer
biggrin.gif
The only thing I was scared of was condensation around the CPU GPU. But by having the cold air inside the case I'm hoping to just do away with all the insulation.

When not in full load, I would shut off the pump on the outside rad and everything would be at ambients.

Am I wrong in not wanting to insulate the mobo and vid cards if I warm up the water with the rads blowing inside the case?
 
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