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My Quest to 5.0Ghz. - Page 3

post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunagoblin View Post
Anybody who use LLC extreme(level1) and off-set doesn't make sense to me..
You want to save the voltage on idle but risk getting voltage spike damaging the chip on load?
If it's for suicide run purpose then it's understandable, though.
Yea, I also have noticed lowering llc and increase bios vcore will rid some people of that nasty idle bsod. I used to idle bsod with llc set to 75%. So i lowered llc and manually increased my vcore. Idle bsod gone.

There is a couple diff ways to increase voltage. Higher llc and lower bios setting, or lower llc and higher bios setting. With previous generations high llc was recommended because most everyone had eist and c1e disabled (no downclocking at idle), so voltage at idle would stay the same.

With sandy bridge, and this applies to some chips not all, lower llc and higher vcore(bios) might help with idle bsod. Then end result on voltage is the same.
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post #22 of 25
I can't stand LLC at all.

Without it you get a nice predictable droop, that you can control, and modulate your voltage accordingly.

with LLC on, you get random spikes, and even randomer idle voltages.

why anyone would want this sort of uncertainty completely boggles my mind.
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post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by reflex99 View Post
I can't stand LLC at all.

Without it you get a nice predictable droop, that you can control, and modulate your voltage accordingly.

with LLC on, you get random spikes, and even randomer idle voltages.

why anyone would want this sort of uncertainty completely boggles my mind.

It's not uncertainty.......... its just that there isnt a full understanding of LLC and what its doing. We can see some of the effects (voltage spikes, elimination of vdroop) but that's missing one.

First of all for background it is impossible to go from a voltage of say 1.0 to a voltage of 1.4 *instantly* with zero error, even in a digital system. I don't really want to get into that cause I don't think I'll explain it well, but its similar to someone asking you to go from 0 to 10mph in your car in as little time as possible - but without going 11mph or 9mph. The same problem exists here.

Take a look at the pic I attached.

LLC is a form of integral control which is one way of driving the system to the desired voltage. LLC sums the signal error in past iterations and accelerates the controller output (according to the error) towards the desired value. It will naturally overshoot and undershoot, but it will respond more quickly at higher LLC. It also eliminates steady state error / "vdroop". While the picture I attached is exaggerated for illustration purposes, it shows what the general trend of lower LLC to higher LLC is. Please don't take it literally.

My main point here is to show that LLC's primary purpose for us is increasing the speed of the voltage response, in addition to eliminating vdroop. The voltage spikes (undesired) are at the expense of a quicker response (desired), so you get good & bad... not just bad. This is obviously useful for those with a low idle voltage and a higher load voltage (power savings features). With fixed voltage this is not needed, and not very relevant.

Too LOW of an LLC: you'll basically have to overshoot the voltage you need to be stable in testing. I don't mean your BIOS voltage will have to be higher than your load voltage. I mean your load voltage will have to be higher than your minimum stable load voltage. In other words you could be using less volts on load with a better LLC value.

Too HIGH of an LLC: if you use too high of an LLC value, you will spike over and under and end up crashing that way. Again, with a better LLC value, you could be using less volts on load....

So basically I'm also trying to point out that its not black and white, and like most BIOS settings... it depends on the CPU. Technically speaking the AUTO setting *should* work perfectly because its not all that hard to tune a P/PI/PID controller, but I just don't know what "AUTO" does or how it works ... maybe auto = max LLC, how the chip comes stock, and it doesn't even perform tuning calculations (which would be horrendous). Who knows.

Additionally, as far as I know there's really no good way for US to know whether we crashed because the response was too slow (LLC too low), or because there was an under-spike (LLC too high). We can't exactly see very much in CPU-Z so its kind of a guessing game, but at least if you know what's going on you can make educated guesses (and thank intel for the worlds worst diagram in BIOS, lol).

Final point: this entire control problem of going from a low idle voltage to a high load voltage (due to SB power savings features) is exactly why Offset users tend to require a higher voltage than Fixed users.

Edited by donkrx - 8/13/11 at 11:44pm
    
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post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains View Post
Yea, I also have noticed lowering llc and increase bios vcore will rid some people of that nasty idle bsod. I used to idle bsod with llc set to 75%. So i lowered llc and manually increased my vcore. Idle bsod gone.

There is a couple diff ways to increase voltage. Higher llc and lower bios setting, or lower llc and higher bios setting. With previous generations high llc was recommended because most everyone had eist and c1e disabled (no downclocking at idle), so voltage at idle would stay the same.

With sandy bridge, and this applies to some chips not all, lower llc and higher vcore(bios) might help with idle bsod. Then end result on voltage is the same.
Yes!, exactly.

Lowering LLC ==> more vdroop ==> you have to increase BIOS vcore ==> higher idle voltage

It's basically a unique way of decreasing that gap between the idle voltage and load voltage. Since you just match your load voltage, and idle voltage is going up, the gap is smaller and the system is better able to "get there" in time.

You can also accomplish this effect by disabling C-states. Both help with random bsods, and ever since I've incorporated these things into my BIOS settings I have had ZERO random bsods.
    
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post #25 of 25
for the most part. I just do suicide runs (benchmarking), so I want something I can predict. I don't care if my Idle voltage is 1.8, as long as it gets to 1.7 (or whatever number) when in 3dmark/pi/prime/whatever.

For 24/7 overclocks, i have no idea. I was running like 4GHz for 24/7 on my 2600.

For lynnfield, i could talk for hours about llc, but i don't think that is relevant here.
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