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[TechReport] Crysis 2 tessellation: too much of a good thing? - Page 11

post #101 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
Its not Crytek or Nvidia's fault that AMD GPU's suffer at higher poly counts. I for one am glad to have a game that justifies the expense I incurred to get 580's over 6970's. The article was purely a hit piece, plain and simple. Why should Nvida users have their results discarded just because the competing cards can't keep up?

As far as processing "useless polys" my original point still stands: Crysis 2 on Ultra looks amazing and tessellation is a big part of that, regardless of where its utilized....

All that being said, I think I'm going to retire from this thread to go play some Crysis 2 maxed out! Cheers!
Why else are you here to justify your $1k worth of GPU that processes unseen useless polygons.
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post #102 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
Please provide some proof that 99.7% of PC gamers are unable to play Crysis 2...
Take a look at the latest Steam survey and tell me that most people have graphics cards that can play Crysis 2. Not to mention on highest settings to fully enjoy the game they paid for.

OT: Simple fact is Crytek didn't fail in their game, they didn't even fail in the graphics. They failed in expectations...everyone expected a bone crushing graphical experience from Crysis 2. They didn't just want a beautiful game, they wanted a game that was on the very edge of technology and shattered everyone's imagination for graphics. PC Gamers also expected it to be programmed for PC.

First expectation fail: Press Start
Gamer Conclusion: Didn't bother to QA your product for your #1 fans

Second expectation fail: No DX11
Gamer Conclusion: How can you say you have the best graphical game and not even use the latest graphical technology.

Third expectation fail: No Optimization
Gamer Conclusion: Another QA fail, they didn't even bother to produce an efficient product. Gamers give respect to developers that show respect back to their customers by producing a high quality product for the consumers money.

This last fail hits on a lot of levels that the princes of uber rigs don't understand (Is my rig terrible, NO!). The GPU will be run harder for no reason, hotter GPU, more watts of power, more electricity. Then you have gamers that have a rig that runs the game at 50fps...well they'll just turn it down so the game doesn't lock up for that millisecond that got them killed...great now they can't even enjoy the game like they wanted to because Crytek can't optimize the game properly.

Should the consumer take the hit on an unoptimized game when it would have taken a bit more effort on Cryteks part to optimize the game?

Expectations will kill any experience and Crytek did not live up to those expectations for a lot of gamers. They have a lot of PR work to do if they expect their next game to sell well.
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post #103 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowclock View Post
Take a look at the latest Steam survey and tell me that most people have graphics cards that can play Crysis 2. Not to mention on highest settings to fully enjoy the game they paid for.

OT: Simple fact is Crytek didn't fail in their game, they didn't even fail in the graphics. They failed in expectations...everyone expected a bone crushing graphical experience from Crysis 2. They didn't just want a beautiful game, they wanted a game that was on the very edge of technology and shattered everyone's imagination for graphics. PC Gamers also expected it to be programmed for PC.

First expectation fail: Press Start
Gamer Conclusion: Didn't bother to QA your product for your #1 fans

Second expectation fail: No DX11
Gamer Conclusion: How can you say you have the best graphical game and not even use the latest graphical technology.

Third expectation fail: No Optimization
Gamer Conclusion: Another QA fail, they didn't even bother to produce an efficient product. Gamers give respect to developers that show respect back to their customers by producing a high quality product for the consumers money.

This last fail hits on a lot of levels that the princes of uber rigs don't understand (Is my rig terrible, NO!). The GPU will be run harder for no reason, hotter GPU, more watts of power, more electricity. Then you have gamers that have a rig that runs the game at 50fps...well they'll just turn it down so the game doesn't lock up for that millisecond that got them killed...great now they can't even enjoy the game like they wanted to because Crytek can't optimize the game properly.

Should the consumer take the hit on an unoptimized game when it would have taken a bit more effort on Cryteks part to optimize the game?

Expectations will kill any experience and Crytek did not live up to those expectations for a lot of gamers. They have a lot of PR work to do if they expect their next game to sell well.
http://www.overclock.net/benchmarkin...-new-dx11.html

Hmmm, seems like plenty of people here on OCN can in fact play Crysis 2 just fine, even on Ultra....
post #104 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
All of this is irrelevant. The only question anybody should be asking is: Does the game look amazing? The overwhelming majority of people would say absolutely. Take BF3 for instance. It is universally loved around here and bragged on as being a "true" PC game (I agree, it looks fantastic). Well, what if it turned out to have these same "useless polys"? I doubt anyone would say a word.

On the other hand, certain people around here have been looking for a reason to hate on Crysis 2 since before it even came out and this is just another glaring example of some irrelevant piece of info they can grab hold of to prove their point that "Teh Crisis 2 sucks and is cunsole port!!!1111!"

There's also an element of Nvidia hate going on with this article as well....
Forget for one second that you own a system that can max crysis 2 with or without the DX11 "patch." Answer this question directy: Does it make sense for a game to require a graphics card to calculate A LOT of data/values that are then never used in rendering the visual/environmental aspects of an in-game scene?

You really think it's irrelevant that the DX11 implementation (at the very least--who knows what else) is causing extra processing overhead to compute values that are never actually used to render anything visible to the user? Or are using an unnecessary amount of polygons to render essentially flat, static objects that can be just as easily defined by an order of magnitude fewer polygons?

And where was the Nvidia hate in the article?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
Its not Crytek or Nvidia's fault that AMD GPU's suffer at higher poly counts. I for one am glad to have a game that justifies the expense I incurred to get 580's over 6970's. The article was purely a hit piece, plain and simple. Why should Nvida users have their results discarded just because the competing cards can't keep up?

As far as processing "useless polys" my original point still stands: Crysis 2 on Ultra looks amazing and tessellation is a big part of that, regardless of where its utilized....

All that being said, I think I'm going to retire from this thread to go play some Crysis 2 maxed out! Cheers!
If your definition of a "hit piece" is something that explains how DX11 wasn't implemented very intelligently in a methodical manner, then fine. It still doesn't change the fact that DX11 wasn't implemented intelligently. If you're happy that your $1k cards are cranking out numbers that will never be used in a game simply to justify your investment, that's also perfectly fine. I'd rather graphics technologies be used in a sensible manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
http://www.overclock.net/benchmarkin...-new-dx11.html

Hmmm, seems like plenty of people here on OCN can in fact play Crysis 2 just fine, even on Ultra....
Well duh--why would people who don't have a system capable of playing crysis 2 be interested in running its benchmark? That's like polling only people who won the lottery and saying that 100% of the people polled have won the lottery.

OCN is hardly an indication of the general public of PC gaming, and a specific thread of results for a crysis 2 benchmark is even less relevant.
Edited by guyladouche - 8/17/11 at 11:04am
    
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post #105 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post
Z-culling is executed by the ROPs, MSAA is proof of it
I agree. I believe that's what I said before, unless there is some kind of miscommunication. I was just stating that the Z-culling can be avoided entirely if the geometry is culled before being sent to the GPU.

Unless you're saying that they've already verified that all of the hidden water is being z-culled on the GPU side.
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post #106 of 179
Hey guys stop flaming Majin because he has elite hardware, it's his opninion if he's happy with the game then why shouldn't he be.

EDIT:


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
I agree. I believe that's what I said before, unless there is some kind of miscommunication. I was just stating that the Z-culling can be avoided entirely if the geometry is culled before being sent to the GPU.

Unless you're saying that they've already verified that all of the hidden water is being z-culled on the GPU side.
Miscommunication, my bad mate
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post #107 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
Forget for one second that you own a system that can max crysis 2 with or without the DX11 "patch." Answer this question directy: Does it make sense for a game to require a graphics card to calculate A LOT of data/values that are then never used in rendering the visual/environmental aspects of an in-game scene?

You really think it's irrelevant that the DX11 implementation (at the very least--who knows what else) is causing extra processing overhead to compute values that are never actually used to render anything visible to the user? Or are using an unnecessary amount of polygons to render essentially flat, static objects that can be just as easily defined by an order of magnitude fewer polygons?

And where was the Nvidia hate in the article?



If your definition of a "hit piece" is something that explains how DX11 wasn't implemented very intelligently in a methodical manner, then fine. It still doesn't change the fact that DX11 wasn't implemented intelligently. If you're happy that your $1k cards are cranking out numbers that will never be used in a game simply to justify your investment, that's also perfectly fine. I'd rather graphics technologies be used in a sensible manner.
But you are ignoring the end result which is that Crysis 2 does look incredible. However they achieved this is irrelevant to me. You (and the article) assume that these polys are never seen and are useless but thats not correct. It all combines to make the finished product, no matter how insignificant it may seem to you.

A highly detailed slab of concrete may seem funny to you, but I immediately noticed a vast improvement to the game's overall graphics the instant I first tried it with DX11. And yes, that includes the concrete slabs and "useless" water rendering....

Oh, and just read the conclusion for the Nvidia bashing. They seem to insinuate that Nvida and Crytek are in on some secret plot to make AMD look bad (which I would just call good business) and further conclude that they will probably end up removing C2 as a benchmark because it would be unfair to poor AMD. Give me a break....
Edited by Majin SSJ Eric - 8/17/11 at 11:10am
post #108 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post
Hey guys stop flaming Majin because he has elite hardware, it's his opninion if he's happy with the game then why shouldn't he be.
I don't think anyone is saying he/she shouldn't be happy with their game/hardware. But blatant comments contrary to obvious evidence are seldom met with good responses. Especially the baseless ones.
    
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post #109 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
But you are ignoring the end result which is that Crysis 2 does look incredible. However they achieved this is irrelevant to me. You (and the article) assume that these polys are never seen and are useless but thats not correct. It all combines to make the finished product, no matter how insignificant it may seem to you.

A highly detailed slab of concrete may seem funny to you, but I immediately noticed a vast improvement to the game's overall graphics the instant I first tried it with DX11. And yes, that includes the concrete slabs and "useless" water rendering....
Didn't answer my question--what's the point in requiring a gfx card to calculate values and variables that are never used to render something?
    
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post #110 of 179
There is one thing I liked about console gamers that I will always like more than PC gamers. THE PEOPLE WHO PLAYED THE GAME JUST APPRECIATED THAT THEY COULD PLAY IT AND DIDN'T CARE.
Edited by bigkahuna360 - 8/17/11 at 11:21am
     
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