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[TechReport] Crysis 2 tessellation: too much of a good thing? - Page 14

post #131 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post
I agree that it is not Nvidia's fault, it is Crytek's fault. Nvidia paid Crytek in various ways to ensure that the update would function better on Nvidia's cards. That being said is was Crytek is accepted this and implemented this.

At the end of the day its just the same old same old. One of the reasons I am glad to support AMD.
So instead of blaming AMD for skimping on tessellation hardware, its everyone else's fault?

The game requires a lot of tessellation processing power, which current gen AMD cards struggle with. It has nothing to do with running better on one brand vs another.

I'm sure once the HD 7000 series rolls around (hopefully with better tess performance) this will be a non issue.
post #132 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecchi-BANZAII!!! View Post
By convenient you mean no more maximum power/speed, only automatic perks.
Convenient and lazy are different things.
What on earth are you talking about? It's only a control configuration change. Automatic perks? What?

It went from having to hold the middle mouse and moving the cursor to select the suit mode to pressing a button to select the suit mode, which only changes HOW FAST YOU CAN SELECT IT. Jesus Christ, are you dense? what you said there is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
Edited by aroc91 - 8/17/11 at 1:38pm
    
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post #133 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post
So instead of blaming AMD for skimping on tessellation hardware, its everyone else's fault?

The game requires a lot of tessellation processing power, which current gen AMD cards struggle with. It has nothing to do with running better on one brand vs another.

I'm sure once the HD 7000 series rolls around (hopefully with better tess performance) this will be a non issue.
AMD cards have enough tessellation power. Problem is Nvidia can put all its GPU power towards tessellation AMD cant.
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post #134 of 179
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
So to answer the original question, if the water vertices are actually moving to form waves, and are out of sight, that is significantly more expensive than a flat water plane. I would hope they're not doing that.
The answer is in the article:
Quote:
Yet when we analyze this frame in the debugger, we see a relatively large GPU usage spike for a certain draw call, just as we saw for the coastline scene above.
...*snip*...
That's right. The tessellated water mesh remains in the scene, apparently ebbing and flowing beneath the land throughout, even though it's not visible. The GPU is doing the work of creating the mesh, despite the fact that the water will be completely occluded by other objects in the final, rendered frame.
Tessellation is done on the hardware level on the GPU ( for those that are dx11 capable ofc ) and if the instructions reach the GPU it will use part of its resources to calculate it.

Quote:
One of the major benefits of DX11's tessellation capability is its dynamic and programmable nature: the game developer can ramp up the polygon detail only where needed, and he can scale back the number of polygons in places where they wouldn't be perceived—say, in the interior of objects compromised of flat surfaces or in objects situated further from the camera. Such dynamic algorithms can maintain the illusion of complexity without overburdening the GPU's geometry processing capacity.
... they could have made tessellation scale back for objects not in sight / extremly far away.

Here is performance benchmarsk comparing tessellation effects on amd vs nvidia and how to scale it back , the game still looks gorgeous with a tesselation factor of 16 and performance is not hit so much.
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post #135 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post
I really don't see what the big deal is. So Crysis 2 isn't perfectly optimized... ok. How many games really are?

Developers take shortcuts all the time to save time and money. I'm sure it's easier to globally apply tess to all layers than just in specific instances when X object is Y distance from the screen. And on hardware properly equipped to handle heavy tessellation, the extra overhead is a non-issue.

I mean I'm using weaker cards than Majin at nearly 2x his resolution and the game was perfectly playable for me (40-50fps avg) completely maxed.

If AMD's flagship cards weren't hamstrung by their low tessellation unit count, this wouldn't even be a news story. It seems pretty tinfoil hat-ish to think this is some conspiracy against AMD imo.
Exactly my point all along but apparently not bashing crytek and NVIDIA makes us troll....
post #136 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goliath.ro View Post
The answer is in the article:


Tessellation is done on the hardware level on the GPU ( for those that are dx11 capable ofc ) and if the instructions reach the GPU it will use part of its resources to calculate it.



... they could have made tessellation scale back for objects not in sight / extremly far away.

Here is performance benchmarsk comparing tessellation effects on amd vs nvidia and how to scale it back , the game still looks gorgeous with a tesselation factor of 16 and performance is not hit so much.
+rep for the info, that settles the discussion.

So Crytek has indeed failed by setting up a poorly optimized game and expecting people to all have the hardware to deal with it. They should never have put moving, tesselated waves in areas they could not be seen, that's far too expensive.

Is it possible to uninstall the DX11 patch or disable DX11 and run in DX9? If so that is my recommendation to all players who aren't getting framerates they are comfortable with.

This has nothing to do with AMD or Nvidia, it has to do with a poorly optimized game. I don't care if AMD's cards run tesselation like crap, as a developer you don't create a game that will only run well on half of your customer base. They didn't seem to do that with the DX9 version, but DX11 version definitely seems to target only the extreme high-end DX11 cards with heavy tessellation support, which is very limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post
So instead of blaming AMD for skimping on tessellation hardware, its everyone else's fault?

The game requires a lot of tessellation processing power, which current gen AMD cards struggle with. It has nothing to do with running better on one brand vs another.

I'm sure once the HD 7000 series rolls around (hopefully with better tess performance) this will be a non issue.
So if I made a game that required an Intel processor (for some stupid reason), that would be AMD's fault? If a developer creates a game that only runs well for half of their customers, it's the developer's fault, not the hardware manufacturer. Developers develop games made to run on the hardware for their target customer base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post
Exactly my point all along but apparently not bashing crytek and NVIDIA makes us troll....
No it just makes you ignorant. Trolling is when you know better but you still do it anyway. We've established long ago in this thread that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Edited by lordikon - 8/17/11 at 2:04pm
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post #137 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroc91 View Post
What on earth are you talking about? It's only a control configuration change. Automatic perks? What?

It went from having to hold the middle mouse and moving the cursor to select the suit mode to pressing a button to select the suit mode, which only changes HOW FAST YOU CAN SELECT IT. Jesus Christ, are you dense? what you said there is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
So you need to insult me because you can't play Crysis 1 without the automatic perks suit?
Hold space (automatic strength for noobs
Shold Shift (automatic speed for noobs)

If you don't even get that you're way beyond help.
You're just the kind of "gamer" that ruined hardcore gaming.
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post #138 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecchi-BANZAII!!! View Post
So you need to insult me because you can't play Crysis 1 without the automatic perks suit?
Hold space (automatic strength for noobs
Shold Shift (automatic speed for noobs)

If you don't even get that you're way beyond help.
You're just the kind of "gamer" that ruined hardcore gaming.
Wow. Where did I ever imply it prevented me from playing Crysis 1? Way to make assumptions. You're obviously not understanding me. I'm not against gameplay convolution, I'm against control convolution. There's absolutely no reason why an unnecessary menu is more "hardcore" than toggling the option with a button instead. It's the same action, but without the stupid control scheme. Do you really not understand the difference between optimized controls and simplified gameplay? What's the point in having a full keyboard if you're only using a few buttons to access every option?

If what you're suggesting is optimal, we'd all be playing our games through a tree selection menu using only the up and down arrows and the enter button.

Seriously, what is "automatic" about pressing Q to toggle an option as opposed to clicking the scroll wheel and moving the mouse in a particular direction? It's not playing the game for you like you're implying. It's just convoluted. Again, control optimization =/= gameplay simplification. Actually, it's the opposite, as it's more versatile and suit controls can be toggled on the fly while running and shooting instead of having to stop shooting to switch the suit mode.

Edit: I just read the manual and more notably, the controls for Crysis 2. The radial menu is still available. Sprint and strength still use suit energy too I believe, but I do agree the removal of the speed and strength toggle is gameplay simplification.
Edited by aroc91 - 8/17/11 at 2:54pm
    
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post #139 of 179
So... in conclusion ... AMD cards can't render high poly geometry as well as Nvidia cards? Well thats really informative because guess what? Maybe it doesn't matter if you're rendering a block of concrete but what about in future games where the poly count will increase as much as Crysis 2 with the DX 11 patch?
All it proves to me is that the current Nvidia cards will have a longer lifespan than AMD's.

It seems to me Nvidia kind of said "hey look , were rendering even the water mesh when not visible and still getting good framerates" . This whole thing seems like Nvidia's way of showing their cards are superior and well from a consumer POV .. that's true. Really I don't care because thats how competition works and if AMD was engineering good hardware, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Edited by freestyla85 - 8/17/11 at 2:55pm
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post #140 of 179
@ OP: lol @ what people will do for $$$.
Edited by Ekemeister - 8/17/11 at 2:56pm
    
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