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post #21 of 33
if you love microsoft and are a windows only person, i guess c# wouldn't instill as many bad habits as VB .. watch the errata though, toooo many chefs in the kitchen all adding their favorite little trick to the language. c# has the most keywords and syntax constructs by far. This isn't necessarily bad, but add add add never subtract, it's about clean up time... more errata than C++

if you hate microsoft (how could you NOT), java is a similar general purpose language. I would strongly recommend java, to a beginner or veteran.
Edited by lloyd mcclendon - 8/18/11 at 11:22pm
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post #22 of 33
I vote Python, as it's very easy to pick up (by design) and can fulfill pretty much every need you could have. It's extensible via C modules, granting speed and a lot of power, so if you eventually feel you've mastered it, you can extend it as far as your imagination can go with C extensions.

Edit: "Commonality" of a language is irrelvent, as long as you can give someone an executable file, who cares?? There's pretty big online support for most languages you'll encounter, so don't worry about it. Go with what's easiest & most productive for you.
Edited by chemicalfan - 8/19/11 at 8:49am
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post #23 of 33
my only beef with python is the duck typing. I would never want to build a large life-critical system on a platform that doesn't have strong typing. Compile time type safety is one of the best things we have ever invented for a programming language, I would never want to throw that away just to save keystrokes.

As far as untyped languages go, python does have a huge upside. If they made python with static typing I'd be all over it.

And yes, it is a good language for a beginner to get things done without much hassle. But it doesn't exactly encourage good programming practice through and through, which I would argue is way more important to learn as beginner vs just getting an app to do what you want. I would never ever ever hire someone that only knew how to hack at python, or similar lazy assed languages..
Edited by lloyd mcclendon - 8/19/11 at 4:39pm
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post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd mcclendon View Post
if you love microsoft and are a windows only person, i guess c# wouldn't instill as many bad habits as VB .. watch the errata though, toooo many chefs in the kitchen all adding their favorite little trick to the language. c# has the most keywords and syntax constructs by far. This isn't necessarily bad, but add add add never subtract, it's about clean up time... more errata than C++

if you hate microsoft (how could you NOT), java is a similar general purpose language. I would strongly recommend java, to a beginner or veteran.
Do you even know what you're talking about or all the post is gravitating around the "all should hate M$" statement?
C# is Not heavier than C++, never was, never will be.

The actual situation is exactly opposite to what you described.

Quote:
C++, on the other hand, has its roots in the ANSI C++ language definition. It is not completely ANSIcompliant
for the simple reason that Microsoft first wrote its C++ compiler before the ANSI definition had become official, but it comes close. Unfortunately, this has led to two problems. First, ANSI C++ has its roots in a decade-old state of technology, and this shows up in a lack of support for modern concepts (such as Unicode strings and generating XML documentation) and for some archaic syntax structures designed for the compilers of yesteryear (such as the separation of declaration from definition of member functions).
Second, Microsoft has been simultaneously trying to evolve C++ into a language that is designed for highperformance tasks on Windows, and in order to achieve that, it has been forced to add a huge number of
Microsoft-specific keywords as well as various libraries to the language. The result is that on Windows, the language has become a complete mess. Just ask C++ developers how many definitions for a string they can think of: char*, LPTSTR, string, CString (MFC version), CString (WTL version), wchar_t*, OLECHAR*, and so on.

Now enter .NET — a completely revolutionary environment that has brought forth new extensions to both languages. Microsoft has gotten around this by adding yet more Microsoft-specific keywords to C++, and by completely revamping Visual Basic to the current Visual Basic 2010, a language that retains some of the basic VB syntax, but that is so different in design from the original VB that it can be considered, for all practical purposes, a new language.

It is in this context that Microsoft has provided developers an alternative — a language designed specifically for .NET, and designed with a clean slate. C# is the result.
Source: Pro C# and .NET 4.0 - Nagel, Evjen, Glynn, Watson, Skinner
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post #25 of 33
That quote seems to be comparing against MSVC++ ... Well, C# the language is without a doubt every bit as errata filled as ISO C++ (not necessarily the STL - the language) ... To know C# well and avoid all the pitfalls requires a lot of reading.. ISO C++ and STL is maybe a little bit less sensible when you are first learning, but it's much more sensible to work with, especially considering some of the harebrained stuff that gets decided on by 5 not-always-the-most-talented people in a closed room on a Tuesday morning. IMO.


And if it is actually "lighter" than MSVC++ as your koolaid quote tries to say, that is pretty funny then. So you guys are thrilled that you went from a huge terd to a slightly smaller terd. congratulations meanwhile, unix remains terd free as usual since the majority of the poor programmers and very few of the good ones refuse to learn it.
Edited by lloyd mcclendon - 8/19/11 at 5:42pm
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post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd mcclendon View Post
That quote seems to be comparing against MSVC++ ... Well, C# the language is without a doubt every bit as errata filled as ISO C++ (not necessarily the STL - the language) ... To know C# well and avoid all the pitfalls requires a lot of reading.. ISO C++ and STL is maybe a little bit less sensible when you are first learning, but it's much more sensible to work with, especially considering some of the harebrained stuff that gets decided on by 5 not-always-the-most-talented people in a closed room on a Tuesday morning. IMO.


And if it is actually "lighter" than MSVC++ as your koolaid quote tries to say, that is pretty funny then. So you guys are thrilled that you went from a huge terd to a slightly smaller terd. congratulations meanwhile, unix remains terd free as usual since the majority of the poor programmers and very few of the good ones refuse to learn it.
Why did this turn into a discussion about Windows and Unix? C++ doesn't care either way, the language is the same regardless. The differences I'm hearing are .NET more than C++.

Back on-topic: My recommendation for a useful language, if I had no idea of the target field would be C++, it's powerful, versatile, and works on many platforms and OSes, and is lightweight (especially considering you can by extension use C code whenever necessary).
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post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
My recommendation for a useful language, if I had no idea of the target field would be C++, it's powerful, versatile, and works on many platforms and OSes, and is lightweight (especially considering you can by extension use C code whenever necessary).
and it's one of the most hard to learn languages out there...
- also funny for teachers to torture their absolute beginner victims.

This recommendation sounds to me like the guy who separates programmers into "Real Men" and "Quiche Eaters" http://guest.engelschall.com/~sb/realmen/

According to the threads title "Easy to learn, but useful language" this recommendation is useless from my point.
post #28 of 33
I've been trying to learn c++ for quite some time, and it is by far the most difficult thing I've ever attempted to do in my life.
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieschen-mueller View Post
and it's one of the most hard to learn languages out there...
- also funny for teachers to torture their absolute beginner victims.

This recommendation sounds to me like the guy who separates programmers into "Real Men" and "Quiche Eaters" http://guest.engelschall.com/~sb/realmen/

According to the threads title "Easy to learn, but useful language" this recommendation is useless from my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Peen View Post
I've been trying to learn c++ for quite some time, and it is by far the most difficult thing I've ever attempted to do in my life.
I guess it never seemed all that difficult to me. I started teaching myself BASIC when I was 7 with some occasional help from my dad, and then started teaching myself C++ when I was 12. I then dabbled with C++ off and on for awhile until I went to school for it. The general concepts of programming are the same with almost every language, so I guess you can start with just about anything and then come to C++ later. But I'll concede while it might be most useful (IMO), it may not be the easiest to learn. If "easy to learn" is more important than "useful", then I would recommend Java, or C#.
Edited by lordikon - 8/20/11 at 3:58pm
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post #30 of 33
Thread Starter 
I'm going to try C# and see how it goes!
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